surface machine tips sizes for parking garages

What Size tips as in fan size and how hot is the water and at what GPM'S have you guys been using to clean parking garages??

So far I've been using with my swabby 15 degree tips at 2gpm's each since there are 4 swivel bars under the deck with a Powerwasher thats rated at 8gpm's and we have the heat set at 200 degree's
I'm starting to wonder if I can use the 0 degree tips on the parking garage for two reasons....1-the parking garage concrete is about as hard as concrete I ever cleaned and 2-since my my Swivel bars are being driven from a motor they spin so much faster then your normal surface machine does and with the 0 I'm guessing it will clean faster. Also keep in mind with a machine that drives the bars like the swabby does the bars can be set to overlap but never hit each other because of the way they are lined up and this is great because you never get those dreaded lap marks.

I know the swabby spins faster, ( I am guessing about 2,600 to 2,800 RPM's), than a non propelled surface cleaner at 1,800+ RPM's depending on the GPM and PSI.

We have modified our Turbo Twister's to hit 4,000 RPM's by putting on a 13 hp motor just to turn the wands at that speed, and it takes every bit of of the 13HP to do it. Because we are spinning so fast, we are able to use 0 degree tips at a faster pace than walking speed. Our frame had to be modified and reinforced to handle the stress from the engine and the wands from flying apart.

I am not sure with your swabby, if you can maintain the same speed from going to 0 degree, in fact you may have to slow down your approach. Plus, as you said, that will only be used for garage cleaning, and not store fronts.

When we put 15 degree nozzles on recently, we noticed it did not clean nearly as well, but we was able to "run" with the machine. Achieving record speeds.

so it boils down to this....

15 degree: less aggressive, but faster times.
0 degree: extreme aggressiveness with better results, but slower times. And God, you better not stop while engaged even for a minute.

We did that 15 years ago and drilled a grout circle into the Concrete that is still there today. 5,000 psi concrete, our machine made a 1/8 inch deep circle, 36 inch diameter, in the time it took our man to move the hose out of the way of his path. (30 seconds ?)

The faster the wand spins, the better the times.


That's my 2 cents !

Hey John, we always use 25/4.0 for the 8gpm machines. We never had a problem with this combo for any surface.

If you are running 4 tips then then i would run 25/2.0

Happy Holidays, i will be in the City on tues the 23rd..til the 27th.

surfacer lamentations..lol:

I'll just drop the point here as I usually do on all the surfacer threads that surfacers don't clean by their rpm. Rpm only prevents stripes from your moving to fast. Increased machine volume per watever given orbit length around the circle will of course change the amount of clean in any given time frame. In the end it is all about time on cantact of whatever flow/psi your running and how much your dividing it up. One rpm is as good as 4k rpm as far as how clean the area the fan hits traveling around the circle can become. This does not account for walking mind you or the out walking of a gpm. If we measure a wands cleanability in a given time it would be some equation related to starting cleaning units (gpm*psi) divided by tip distance and overall fan/impact dimensions and then of course how much area we moved it over in the time frame in question. If not moving such is easy enough to figure as the fan makes an unbroken area of impact. A surfacer can not be thought of as a wand though with unbroken dimensions to its impact zone. It has a whole huge area inside uneffected until we move over it. Figuring its cleanability must start with similar figuring as wand but has all sorts of other calculations I won't pretend to be able to figure in. A couple feet of walking with one sees only the front diameter of the moving bar being effective and then once the tail end passes over same area you gain more time on contact. Far as more rpm goes..the longer the tip orbit the faster the spin ya need to prevent striping so large or monstrous surfacers need faster spin to make for unbroken dimension. A zero tip at standard surfacer distances has a great enough impact to cause damage in most any gven time frame so it not advisable. A 15 at proper distance won't eat crete though and it's swath increases chance of not being outwalkable at standard bar rpm's so it is best bet. Combine that with limiting your surfacer size to the size your gpm can handle. Some rotary union/bar assembly do indeed take more flow to turn a suitable rpm that prevents the striping. powered bars can overcome this.
So but anyways, rpm does not increase time on contact and in fact divides. The divisional parts do of course add up to 1 over the given time frame. You'll be able to outwalk say a few hundred but not a thousand or two especially if the tip size covers an inch or two. Think of each bar pass as shades of color. The more passes the smaller the change of shade(btw,correct word is tint). Think of 5gpm on a 28" as clean and bright like the moon but an 8gpm on same 28" as blinding like the sun. You can walk it faster not because the rpm of a lesser is neccessarily maxed out but because its aggression is clean enough to be able to do it without going back for more time on contact.. hence making for a larger area at a sufficient moon bright level.

Sorry, I did not get on SHORT bus today..


ps- in rereading Jim I see that we both on same page..

pps- John, I would be interested to know the exact total circumference distances traveled by all four bars. Or at least the diameters so I can figure it on my own. I take it you've got 8 tips with each putting out 1 gpm. If the thing cleans swell enough with the area it covers and the tips ya using then I want to use the info and come up with a single diameter equivelant of your four.
Powering the rpm of such a single device would clean just as well as yours...Not saying I would do it as a single would be too monstrous for use, transport, or storage. At some point when getting really large I would think the unions would have to have some sort of secondary bearing support as well prevent them from wearing out quikly form all the bar weight.
Based on a figure of about 28" diameter being about the largest size described for say a 5gpm the figures work out to 87.92" of circumference travel which works out to like a somewhat abstract number of 170.6 (based on 5*3k=15k units) per inch or per pass.
A 20" would be 238.85 and so forth. Not sure what to call this abstract figure but it would be very useful info I'd think.
We could say like this surfacer/machine combo produces this much cleaning effectiveness or what have you.

Wanted to say I enjoyed your call today Jim..always good to hear what others are doing. I was able to finally make it to your site via typing it in direct. Link musta been messed up in going off PWI signature...
You surely have some awesome custom equipment that most would drool or kill to have!

We do part ways on a couple points you have running throughout your site though. I consider the point of thin steam spray via decrease flow moot as I have never seen people adjust their flow down yet not adjust their tips or unloaders accordingly. In my book thin spray does not equal higher psi which causes damage.
The other point is that of equating a powered bar to equalling more psi/power/impact,etc. That is basically what yer saying if saying an unpowered bar saps power. A bar moving at right angle imparts no difference of water speed/impact towards the surface. If such was case we could effectively turn low water pressure(like 100psi) into high water pressure via bar spinning it upto some exagerated speed of like 20,000 rpm or such. Standard unpowered bar is like rocketry or an airplane thrust. The energy coming out the tip is mandated and creates thrust..doesn't need to hit the cement in order to turn and the cement does not make the thrust lower. In case of a wand we feel the thrust in our hand. As example, a plane trying to take off on a moving/conveyor tarmack still takes off and goes the same speed...just ask Mythbusters..lol.
As for any thoughts of a slightly angled tip turning opposite direction creating more impact, answer would be no.. a change in angle simply changes the thrust direction which speeds or slows the spin about its axis. Nothing of downward cleaning power would be effected towards the good. You would have to spin a bars tip directly downward into its direction of spray to create an increase similar to a shockwave effect added upon the original thrust or kinetic power of the water hitting the surface. Such of course is impossable as said tip/bar would hit concrete.
What really matters on the rpm obtainable for an unpowered bar would be unsprung weight, resistances of the internal bearings, internal flow restrictions, and the starting thrust.
Ok heres a way to picture this.. I am riding on my horse around a wagon train and I shoot a cowboy with my arrow. The arrow goes no deeper because I am moving at right angle. If I were moving directly toward him the speed difference would be miniscule if at all measurable. Only thing that can be given to a powered bar is the ability to keep up with stripe/walk demands.. oh and then of course that little thing of impact angle...haha...the up close peak/valley shape of crete cleans up better if it is hit head on and effectively lowers time of contact requirements. Personally I would take that idea and run with it over other ideas.

Again, very nice talking to ya..cya around !

ps- I want all that heat and power ya got

I like 15 degree Tips in all My surface cleaners

bumpppppppp

We have gone as high as 40 degree tips on our surface machines. 15-25 work best.

MMI Enterprises said:

Wanted to say I enjoyed your call today Jim..always good to hear what others are doing. I was able to finally make it to your site via typing it in direct. Link musta been messed up in going off PWI signature...
You surely have some awesome custom equipment that most would drool or kill to have!

We do part ways on a couple points you have running throughout your site though. I consider the point of thin steam spray via decrease flow moot as I have never seen people adjust their flow down yet not adjust their tips or unloaders accordingly. In my book thin spray does not equal higher psi which causes damage.
The other point is that of equating a powered bar to equalling more psi/power/impact,etc. That is basically what yer saying if saying an unpowered bar saps power. A bar moving at right angle imparts no difference of water speed/impact towards the surface. If such was case we could effectively turn low water pressure(like 100psi) into high water pressure via bar spinning it upto some exagerated speed of like 20,000 rpm or such. Standard unpowered bar is like rocketry or an airplane thrust. The energy coming out the tip is mandated and creates thrust..doesn't need to hit the cement in order to turn and the cement does not make the thrust lower. In case of a wand we feel the thrust in our hand. As example, a plane trying to take off on a moving/conveyor tarmack still takes off and goes the same speed...just ask Mythbusters..lol.
As for any thoughts of a slightly angled tip turning opposite direction creating more impact, answer would be no.. a change in angle simply changes the thrust direction which speeds or slows the spin about its axis. Nothing of downward cleaning power would be effected towards the good. You would have to spin a bars tip directly downward into its direction of spray to create an increase similar to a shockwave effect added upon the original thrust or kinetic power of the water hitting the surface. Such of course is impossable as said tip/bar would hit concrete.
What really matters on the rpm obtainable for an unpowered bar would be unsprung weight, resistances of the internal bearings, internal flow restrictions, and the starting thrust.
Ok heres a way to picture this.. I am riding on my horse around a wagon train and I shoot a cowboy with my arrow. The arrow goes no deeper because I am moving at right angle. If I were moving directly toward him the speed difference would be miniscule if at all measurable. Only thing that can be given to a powered bar is the ability to keep up with stripe/walk demands.. oh and then of course that little thing of impact angle...haha...the up close peak/valley shape of crete cleans up better if it is hit head on and effectively lowers time of contact requirements. Personally I would take that idea and run with it over other ideas.

Again, very nice talking to ya..cya around !

ps- I want all that heat and power ya got

Click to expand...

I would like to hear Nigel's and Tom's take on this.

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