Clean Water Act / EPA waivers ?

Here's a question that I have yet seen asked. I have recently done demonstrations and bids on properties where the drainage will, at least in part, flow towards a storm drain off property or dry well / retention area on property.

Let me use Sonic as a perfect example. One Sonic I have bid claims that they've been paying $400 a month, and that the "contractor" does the property once a week at that price. I've also encountered gas stations who make similar claims.

This type of flatwork will contain plenty of oil, gas and diesel runoff, which will rinse into storm drains, dry wells and retention areas. These same locations are not willing to spend the money on reclamation, let alone a professional cleaning.

My question is this, does the reclamation responsibility lay solely on the contractor, or if the customer signs a liability waver, would that protect the contractor from the CWA/EPA liability ?

That being said, why would a customer accept responsibility when he/she can find some lowballer who cares less about CWA and EPA regulations,
right ?

With the knowledge I have gained here and doing research on the responsibilities of our industry regarding the CWA and the EPA, I realize the future of our industry is reclamation. I for one am not willing to take the risk of a hefty EPA fine, just to land an under priced flatwork job.

If you do the work the initial responsibility lies with you regardless of what the customer says or does, unless the runoff goes to oil water separator and sanitary sewer.

If you don't do it right they can go after you and wipe you out. Then they go after the deep pockets of the property owner...and so on until they are satisfied.

In California, EPA makes both parties responsible.

Usually they go after the deeper pockets. You must let the owners be aware of the term "Cradle to Grave"

If the Class II Hazardous Waste is generated on site through autos dripping oil on the ground or any other means, that owner is responsible for that waste, AS WELL AS THE ONE WHO MOVES, disrupts or collects THE WASTE, until the waste is in the grave. Meaning till a authorized waste collector accepts all of the class II Waste in writing.

Folks, Look I have been bashed and raped over the coals on this issue by some members here who did not accept or did not believe that this is coming to your neighborhood.

Some have dump into the dry wells saying that is were they responsibility ends. At least in California, that is not true. In California, they are pulling out the dry wells and we as pressure washers are not allowed to dump the Class II Hazardous Waste in those dry well containers. If you do, and they leak in the underground drinking supply, you may be liable for moving the waste from the surface above to the dry well. If that dry well is not maintained or is leaking into the underground drinking supply, fines will be issued to all those who contributed to the waste. ( Cradle to Grave )

Of course this is a worst case scenario.


Again this is only in California and a few other states. Check with your state and county to see if they follow these same restrictions.

Great info guys, I would think that restaurant exterior cleaning (drive thru etc) would produce a small amount of oil, etc if cleaned regularly. Not saying that it is right for the water to go down the storm drain.

I was wondering what areas of the country if any allow the wash water of cosmetic cleaning to enter the storm drain. (I know what the clean water act says, and I have also seen an application for a permit for water for storm drains, (not the pressure wash industry))

1) If a functional oil absorbent sock is used in the path of the wash water to the storm drain
2)If no chemicals are used, only hot water for cleaning
3)If all heavy sediment (non dissolved) is contained.
4)If the water does not go directly into a stream or river, (meaning if it leads to a settlement pond first).

First, I would be more than willing to clean a sonic for $400 a week. Especially if there were a bunch of them.
The City of Phoenix guidelines are pretty specific on what you can and cannot do.
http://74.125.95.132/custom?q=cache...d=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=google-coop-np

This will get you started. In the valley, Phoenix and Tempe have the strictest expectations.

Scott Stone said:

First, I would be more than willing to clean a sonic for $400 a week. Especially if there were a bunch of them.
The City of Phoenix guidelines are pretty specific on what you can and cannot do.
http://74.125.95.132/custom?q=cache...d=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=google-coop-np

This will get you started. In the valley, Phoenix and Tempe have the strictest expectations.

Click to expand...

Scott, it's $400 a month, and they're doing weekly "splashes". I just signed a Sonic, the initial cleaning is more than double that. 9207 sq ft.

I misread your post. They would be lucky to have me stop and drop a cup of water for $100 per stop. I must have misread the original post.

Scott Stone said:

I misread your post. They would be lucky to have me stop and drop a cup of water for $100 per stop. I must have misread the original post.

Click to expand...

The pic's I posted were taken 3 days after the last "cleaning". Not sure they even splashed a cup of water, maybe just sent an invoice ?

Can we even contemplate how many MILLIONS of cars are driving around leaking EVERYWHERE they go and having it washed down with rainwater? Since 'they' think they own the streets and 'we' have to ask for permission to drive on them, how about 'they' be held responsible for them and follow their own rules.

Jim (Phoenix), If it doesn't leave the property it's not violating the cwa. Jim (California), is also right - they (city, state etc) can do whatever they want and make whatever rules they say.

Scott, are those the 'ruling' codes or are there other codes? What is the definition of surface cleaning and 'sidewalks and plazas'

Some interesting notes - Without soap - storm drains covered with a fabric filter to collect debris - this is a violation of the cwa, right?

Sidewalks and plazas with soap - water must be vacuumed or pumped to a tank and then can be sent to the sewer BUT - Surface cleaning with soap, Wash water must be directed toward the sanitary sewer ? What exactly does 'directed toward' mean? As compared to 'directed into' or 'put into'

It's good to see that discharge to the san sewer is allowed - beats hauling the waste.

tomtucson said:

Can we even contemplate how many MILLIONS of cars are driving around leaking EVERYWHERE they go and having it washed down with rainwater? Since 'they' think they own the streets and 'we' have to ask for permission to drive on them, how about 'they' be held responsible for them and follow their own rules.

Jim (Phoenix), If it doesn't leave the property it's not violating the cwa. Jim (California), is also right - they (city, state etc) can do whatever they want and make whatever rules they say.

Scott, are those the 'ruling' codes or are there other codes? What is the definition of surface cleaning and 'sidewalks and plazas'

Some interesting notes - Without soap - storm drains covered with a fabric filter to collect debris - this is a violation of the cwa, right?

Sidewalks and plazas with soap - water must be vacuumed or pumped to a tank and then can be sent to the sewer BUT - Surface cleaning with soap, Wash water must be directed toward the sanitary sewer ? What exactly does 'directed toward' mean? As compared to 'directed into' or 'put into'

It's good to see that discharge to the san sewer is allowed - beats hauling the waste.

Click to expand...

The Maryland department of environment says the best thing is for you to put all wash water from cosmetic cleaning into the sanitary sewer, landscape is the second best option (second option is not in the laws, this was just a suggestion verbally be state representative), and they are happy. But depending on were you are in Maryland you "technically" suppose to have a permit form the water district you are in, and they have to approve your treatment process.

The cities are responsible for local enforcement of the CWA. By directing soemthing towards teh sanitary sewer, vs. putting it directly into the sewer, it is allowing you to use evaporation to your advantage.
I have always wondered about the street thing, myself. Have you ever noticed how much oil is coming out of the street when the rains hit? The difference that I can see is that oil is more easily remediated than soap is, and soap prevents the more natural oils from being rememdiated by being broken down.

Those rules are the Best Management Practices by the city of Phoenix. Thus, they are basically the rules.

I guess he has not worked in Tempe in the day, watch out for the bike enforcement. EPA on Bikes just looking for you.

We are Health an Safety Cleaners

Scott Stone said:

The cities are responsible for local enforcement of the CWA. By directing soemthing towards teh sanitary sewer, vs. putting it directly into the sewer, it is allowing you to use evaporation to your advantage.
I have always wondered about the street thing, myself. Have you ever noticed how much oil is coming out of the street when the rains hit? The difference that I can see is that oil is more easily remediated than soap is, and soap prevents the more natural oils from being rememdiated by being broken down.

Those rules are the Best Management Practices by the city of Phoenix. Thus, they are basically the rules.

Click to expand...

The term "cosmetic cleaners" is the worst misnomer in the history of our industry. And the "nothing down the dr@in but rain" catch all false phrase is a close second.

It is a damn shame that BOTH of those phrases originated from someone with an intimate knowledge of our industry who is either a genius for setting us up for failure and a reliance on him or completely incompetent with no ability to foresee the negative consequences of such inaccurate verbiage.

Either way we have a mess on our hands that could have been completely avoidable.

This is a lesson we all can learn, when taking on the humbling position of working as a representative for contractors one has to humbly accept advice from others or this disaster is the result.

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