Who certifies the people that certify us ?

JohnB

JohnB
Where does it all start ? I know a good bit about fire equipment , and vent hood cleaning .. Been doing it 20 years now.. So what can someone with 2 years experience and a book teach me, just so I can get a 500.00 peice of paper saying that I passed some course?? I could simply say that I certify myself , having 20 years experience in the field.. I have had customers ask before and I tell them I have 20 years experince you can choose me or a guy that went to a school who has about 2 years experience .. While I am not knocking hood cleaning schools I just think with the experience alone the choice is clear , I really believe certification is a gov scam to extract even more money from the independent contractors pocket.. And one day when I get to old to do this I am going to start my own certification school.. Think about the facts if you are have heart surgery would you want the intern with 2 years experience are the surgeon with 20 years experience ..

Certification is only as good as the experience that is behind it !!!! :poke:
 
Acceptable to the AHJ...
 
Not trying to take sides but I have seen the work of guys that have been in the Tree trimming business, Plumbers, Electricians, Pressure Washing Contractors, Landscapers, etc..... that even though they have 15 to 20 years, that just means that they have been in the business that long and a lot of these guys still don't know what they are doing.

The guys with the licenses (plumbers and electricians), all they have to show is that they have been working with a company for so many years then pass a test. They could have been helpers and do good on tests, that does not mean they could wire up a house or building to proper code, just that they can hold down a job and do what they are told most of the time. The plumber.....just means basically the same, they hold down a job, can pass a test and do what they are told, does not mean that they can run pipes through the house to code, pressure test them, make sure that there are no leaks in the hidden areas, etc......

There are complaints all the time about guys that have a lot of time in the field but time does not really mean anything these days as a lot of those guys just fell through the cracks and are finally getting caught doing shoddy work and people are getting fed up and are finally doing things about it like taking them to court, filing on their insurance, calling the media, etc....

Time really does not mean that much, what you can do, what you can prove (videos of work being done properly, pictures showing before and after the job, testimonials of reputable people or people in the public eye, etc....) and no filing on your insurance and getting taken to court and no businesses bad-talking you are a good indicator that you are good at what you do and are a good contractor.

The certification is both a good idea and bad.

It is good because it shows that you can take and pass a test, come up with the money for the class, learn the current ways of doing things and the way that it is supposed to be done, etc...

It is bad because there is no guarantee that you will always do the job right just because you have the certificate of attending the class.

Every year restaurants burn to the ground and sometimes if not a lot of times it is because of the vents not been cleaned properly and that can come back to the owner not spending the money for a reputable contractor to do the job right or it might have been a contractor with a good reputation that charges appropriately but does half-assed work and might end up getting sued and might not even have insurance.

Just a little rambling here about the good and bad about being certified, just my opinion, not the opinion of PWI or NCE.
 
It is a funny thing about certification. Most of the standards that are set are done by the certifiers, but they usually have to meet industry standards and methods. Most of the standards are result oriented. For instance, in hood cleaning, the acceptable standard is to bare metal. Not to hard of a concept, and we all know that with anything, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Some are fast, and some are slow, but the standard is bare metal. The idea behind any certification program is that the person being certified knows the standard, the applicable regulations, and may have multiple ways of accomplishing a particular project.
The reason certification is important to the customer is because their insurance company could require it, because it increases the comfort level that the contractor actually knows what they are doing, (think about how many times you have seen on this board and others that have claimed that they are the true professionals, and that others are hacks, when they have been in business a total of less than a year) and that there is a level of professionalism in the company.
And like Chris said, even though I am not necessarily talking about you, there are plenty of people that have been in business for a very long time, that are at a beginner level of knowledge, because they refuse to learn, or because their only source of learning is what their distributor tells them is the latest thing, then, as long as it is expensive enough, it is a good purchase. (Sorry, I could not help myself)
 
The exhaust cleaning industry is in its developmental stage. The checks and balances PAC provides are a clear foundation that builds responsibility within and respect and credibility from those the industry serves.

I would say that it depends on who you look to for certification. Being in any industry for 20 years buys you a lot of crediblity as a businessman but it isn't a gaurantee that you are farmiliar with all of the standards that the governing authorities require unless you work with them on a regular basis. Many people in this industry do not, therefore you must have standards by which to judge performance. People must be held accountable for their performance standards or fire fighters and restaurant patrons can lose their lives as a result.

Just My 2 cents.
 
I believe there is a difference between having 20 years of experience vs. 1 year of experience 20 times.
 
I have met a lot of people that have 20+ years of experience that have no clue on the basic science and technical aspects of the cleaning, or any, industry. Time does not always equal knowledge.
 
From what I understand John is not going to be on here for a while but as always Rumors can be wrong and quite often are. I tried to call his cell today and its been turned off so who knows
 
From what I understand John is not going to be on here for a while but as always Rumors can be wrong and quite often are. I tried to call his cell today and its been turned off so who knows

No kidding?

The number I got for John is no longer working either:blink:
 
Who Certifies?

Haven't been on these BBS's for a while and know why. Just wanted to highlight a couple things about the question of "Who certifies those certifying?"

First I have been in the exhaust-cleaning and related fields (like fire investigation) for 44 years (which does make me OLD!).

More importantly, over those years, we have created five peer-reviewed training manuals for exhaust cleaners, fire inspectors and fire investigators. Three of the books are recognized in print by either the NFPA 96 or NFPA 921 (Guidelines for Fire and Explosion Investigation).

We have created training schools not only for exhaust cleaners but also Fire Inspectors and Fire Investigators and others interested in fire safety. We have created "Certification Guidelines" for both cleaners and fire department fire inspectors.

Of course you are aware that Phil Ackland was the first in the cleaning field to sit on the NFPA 96 committee; and formed and was the first president of IKECA. We also created the certification protocol for PWNA.

There are others in the cleaning field that have just as much passion for trying to improve the caliber of this service and oddly enough we all respect each other in these efforts.

When some of you who want to trash the efforts of those who are trying to improve this field through training and certification can list half the qualifications above, let us know.
 
Great post Phil, Thanks.
 
To Blue Bliss

Your are correct, I do not teach exhaust cleaning courses anymore. My focus is trying to educate the fire inspectors. With others help I did design the cleaning course in Deluxe (Delco). It is the most extensive available for exhaust cleaners, they use my manual, DVDs and other training material and a person will have the opportunity to be PAC.

It is your call, but this course is designed for you to succeed in business and give you the knowledge to do the job right and keep you safer from liability.
 
Thanks Phil! Is it similar to the one you taught about 5 years ago? I need to send two crew foremans through, but I don't think they need much of the business side (I expect they'll one day become competition, but not the day after training I hope!).
 
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