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  1. #1
    Graphic Designer Professor with Tenure "Red"'s Avatar
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    F9 BARC oddity (more like stupidity... mine)

    After cleaning a driveway today, I decided to focus on a rust stain. I'll describe the steps I took and follow up with the pictures.


    1. Cleaned the entire driveway with surface cleaner.
    2. Dried the rust stain area with a leaf blower (20-30 minutes)
    3. Applied F9 (full strength) lightly (watch as the chem foamed up)
    4. Worked the area with a stiff brush
    5. Let sit for a couple minutes
    6. Rinsed with the surface cleaner
    7. Dried it again (there was some noticeable difference, but not gone)
    8. Applied second application and worked with the brush again
    9. Rinsed with the surface cleaner and dried the area again.
    10. Went down the street for a half hour to do a quote (and let the driveway dry on its own this time)
    11. Came back and was confused as all hell as to why the only area of the driveway that wasn't dry was where I cleaned the rust stain
    12. An hour later the "wet" area still looked wet.


    Pictures as as follows: Before first application / after first application / after second application / after 2 hours of dry time.



    The only explanation I can come up with is, the F9 left some sort of residue or cleaned the concrete even more during the rinsing stages. The pattern is clearly the runoff from rinsing.

    Did I do something wrong?
    Last edited by "Red"; 08-30-2013 at 05:43 PM.
    Derrel


    ALLRED Graphic Design
    "This is my World "

  • #2
    Member Associate Professor Craig's Avatar
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    Derrel,

    Was this driveway concrete or is there a concrete coating? The two are very different processes. The stain you have there, even though it looks like rust is actually a battery acid burn. Again, very different types of stains but the process for fertilizer rust stains and battery acid rust stains is the same.

    1. Your problems started with the incorrect procedures starting with #3 through #9.
    2. If that is regular unsealed concrete, you would want to dilute the F9 down 1:2 (1 part water to 2 parts F9). If it is sealed concrete or a concrete coating you would want to dilute further, down to a 1:1 or 2:1.
    3. It looks like you poured the product onto the spot. You always want to spray the product on the area with a pump sprayer, from control joint to control joint. Once you get really good at spraying, we can work on spot spraying. This takes time to learn and you need to get to know your substrates you are going to spray.
    4. You never want to work an area with a stiff brush when you're using F9. Just spray the product on the surface correctly, and let it soak in. It needs time to work and lock into the stain on a chemical level.
    5. Instead of letting is sit for a couple of minutes, you need to let it dry into the concrete.
    6. You need a double application of the product at the proper dilution. At this point if you pressure washed it with a surface cleaner you have now removed the product you just put in there.
    7. After a double application and allowing proper dwell time (let it dry), spraying it on correctly (pump sprayer), all if all the steps are followed correctly....... then you would want to mist with water, broom with a truck brush and lightly rinse off the surface salts. Do not pressure wash with a surface cleaner here. There is a big difference between using a surface cleaner and using an X-Jet tip or even a garden hose. If you pressure washed this with the surface cleaner, you would again have removed the product you just put in there.

    Here are the directions for battery acid stains on an unsealed concrete driveway:Instructions To Clean Rust, Orange Battery Stains and Fertilizer Stains From Concrete:

    1. Pre-Cleaning: Power wash concrete using a commercial grade pressure washer, degreaser and surface cleaner. An alkaline concrete cleaner may be used. Rinse well. Cleaning the concrete first will open up the pores of the concrete and allow F9 BARC to soak in deeper and remove more of the orange battery stain than just applying F9 BARC alone.
    2. After initial pre-cleaning, let the concrete dry completely.
    3. USING A 1:2 DILUTION RATIO (1 PART WATER TO 2 PARTS F9 BARC) apply F9 BARC through pump up sprayer liberally and evenly to the entire pad of concrete. Do not “spot spray” on your first application. Use a circular overlapping spray motion. Spray from one side of the concrete pad to the other using a fine mist up to a uniform spray. High pressure low volume at 60-70 psi is recommended. Apply from control joint to control joint on the entire pad of concrete. Apply a bit more product on the areas with more staining. Apply as evenly and as thick as possible without letting F9 BARC run down the concrete. If F9 BARC does run down the concrete leave it alone. F9 BARC should begin to turn white and foam slightly.
    4. Let concrete dry. Stains will disappear as concrete dries.
    5. If spots remain follow directions in #3 again. If not, proceed to #7. It is better to go heavier on the first application and lighter on the second application. On the second application you may use less product on the areas with less staining and more product on the areas with stains remaining. It is acceptable to mist-spray on this application.
    6. Let concrete dry. Stains will disappear as concrete dries.
    7. A natural by-product of the reaction of this product and the concrete are light and dark mineral salts. Wet the concrete with water to reactivate the F9 cleaner. While wet, lightly broom the concrete to help F9 penetrate the concrete even deeper. Do not let concrete dry. Rinse LIGHTLY with a pressure washer to remove remaining surfactant. Do not use a surface cleaner here. Allow concrete to dry completely and evaluate results.





  • #3
    Member Associate Professor Craig's Avatar
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    Here's some more information on application rates:

    Basically We Have 3 Different Types of Applications:


    ◦Non Porous Substrates: Sealed Concrete, Concrete Coatings, Clay Pavers, Tile, Painted Metal, Aluminum (not polished or chrome), Stainless Steel, Interior Pools and surfaces that do not allow water to penetrate. Dilute F9 BARC 2:1 (two parts Water to 1 part F9. This makes 3 gallons of F9 from 1 gallon of concentrate. Spray a rate of 400-800’ per gallon. A light brushing with a soft or medium truck brush may be required. Do not let F9 Dry and rinse immediately following disappearance of stain.


    ◦Semi Porous Substrates: Stucco, Plastic, Vinyl, Asphalt, Stone and others. Dilute F9 1:1 to 2:1. Spray at a rate of 400-800’ per gallon. Do not let product dry and rinse immediately following disappearance of stain.


    ◦Porous Substrates: Concrete, Bricks and Pavers. Require a heavier concentration due to porosity and the need for deeper penetration. Dilute F9 1:2 (1 part water to 2 parts F9). Spray at a rate of 400-800’ per gallon. This applications requires F9 to DRY INTO the concrete and lock in. Follow instructions listed on product and watch all F9 videos before application.


    ◦Always Apply F9 through a Pump-Up Sprayer or the F9 Hand-Carry Electric Applicator Sprayer

  • #4
    Graphic Designer Professor with Tenure "Red"'s Avatar
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    It does look like I poured it on, but I did use a pump up sprayer and only misted the area.

    I'm going back tomorrow, with your instructions in hand, and see if I can get the desired results. I don't want to make F9 BARC (or you) look bad due to my inexperience.

    Thanks Craig.
    Derrel


    ALLRED Graphic Design
    "This is my World "

  • #5
    Member Associate Professor
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    Goings to mark this for future Good info

    Al Patterson
    Pattersons Pressure Washing
    Conyers, Ga
    770-652-1794
    Al@pattersonspressurewashing.com
    http://www.pattersonspressurewashing.com/

  • #6
    Member Honorary Professor CL Scott's Avatar
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    Your signature is ridiculously sweet...

  • #7
    Graphic Designer Professor with Tenure "Red"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CL Scott View Post
    Your signature is ridiculously sweet...
    Want one?
    Derrel


    ALLRED Graphic Design
    "This is my World "

  • #8
    Graphic Designer Professor with Tenure "Red"'s Avatar
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    Went back over to the same house as yesterday and to my amazement the "wet look" has vanished. Other work kept me from cleaning the stain "the right way", but I'll be other there again tomorrow. I would guess that more than 50% of the stain is now gone, but I want it closer to 90% (or better).




    Derrel


    ALLRED Graphic Design
    "This is my World "

  • #9
    Member Senior Undergraduate Dan Manley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CL Scott View Post
    Your signature is ridiculously sweet...
    CL I like that you have the facebook, youtube, google+, and linkedin on your signature. How did you get those in your signature?

    A-1 Pressure Washing & Roof Cleaning
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  • #10
    Graphic Designer Professor with Tenure "Red"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Manley View Post
    CL I like that you have the facebook, youtube, google+, and linkedin on your signature. How did you get those in your signature?
    Just place the graphic of your choice and then wrap it in an URL.
    Derrel


    ALLRED Graphic Design
    "This is my World "

  • #11
    Exterior Restoration Specialist 21000 PLUS POSTER Ron Musgraves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig View Post
    Derrel,

    Was this driveway concrete or is there a concrete coating? The two are very different processes. The stain you have there, even though it looks like rust is actually a battery acid burn. Again, very different types of stains but the process for fertilizer rust stains and battery acid rust stains is the same.

    1. Your problems started with the incorrect procedures starting with #3 through #9.
    2. If that is regular unsealed concrete, you would want to dilute the F9 down 1:2 (1 part water to 2 parts F9). If it is sealed concrete or a concrete coating you would want to dilute further, down to a 1:1 or 2:1.
    3. It looks like you poured the product onto the spot. You always want to spray the product on the area with a pump sprayer, from control joint to control joint. Once you get really good at spraying, we can work on spot spraying. This takes time to learn and you need to get to know your substrates you are going to spray.
    4. You never want to work an area with a stiff brush when you're using F9. Just spray the product on the surface correctly, and let it soak in. It needs time to work and lock into the stain on a chemical level.
    5. Instead of letting is sit for a couple of minutes, you need to let it dry into the concrete.
    6. You need a double application of the product at the proper dilution. At this point if you pressure washed it with a surface cleaner you have now removed the product you just put in there.
    7. After a double application and allowing proper dwell time (let it dry), spraying it on correctly (pump sprayer), all if all the steps are followed correctly....... then you would want to mist with water, broom with a truck brush and lightly rinse off the surface salts. Do not pressure wash with a surface cleaner here. There is a big difference between using a surface cleaner and using an X-Jet tip or even a garden hose. If you pressure washed this with the surface cleaner, you would again have removed the product you just put in there.

    Here are the directions for battery acid stains on an unsealed concrete driveway:Instructions To Clean Rust, Orange Battery Stains and Fertilizer Stains From Concrete:

    1. Pre-Cleaning: Power wash concrete using a commercial grade pressure washer, degreaser and surface cleaner. An alkaline concrete cleaner may be used. Rinse well. Cleaning the concrete first will open up the pores of the concrete and allow F9 BARC to soak in deeper and remove more of the orange battery stain than just applying F9 BARC alone.
    2. After initial pre-cleaning, let the concrete dry completely.
    3. USING A 1:2 DILUTION RATIO (1 PART WATER TO 2 PARTS F9 BARC) apply F9 BARC through pump up sprayer liberally and evenly to the entire pad of concrete. Do not “spot spray” on your first application. Use a circular overlapping spray motion. Spray from one side of the concrete pad to the other using a fine mist up to a uniform spray. High pressure low volume at 60-70 psi is recommended. Apply from control joint to control joint on the entire pad of concrete. Apply a bit more product on the areas with more staining. Apply as evenly and as thick as possible without letting F9 BARC run down the concrete. If F9 BARC does run down the concrete leave it alone. F9 BARC should begin to turn white and foam slightly.
    4. Let concrete dry. Stains will disappear as concrete dries.
    5. If spots remain follow directions in #3 again. If not, proceed to #7. It is better to go heavier on the first application and lighter on the second application. On the second application you may use less product on the areas with less staining and more product on the areas with stains remaining. It is acceptable to mist-spray on this application.
    6. Let concrete dry. Stains will disappear as concrete dries.
    7. A natural by-product of the reaction of this product and the concrete are light and dark mineral salts. Wet the concrete with water to reactivate the F9 cleaner. While wet, lightly broom the concrete to help F9 penetrate the concrete even deeper. Do not let concrete dry. Rinse LIGHTLY with a pressure washer to remove remaining surfactant. Do not use a surface cleaner here. Allow concrete to dry completely and evaluate results.





    F9 Application
    Ron Musgraves


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