SOFT washing CEDAR roofs "a pack mentality"

I have done cedar roofs both ways. No doubt in my mind that soft washing with SH is easier but cleaning with sodium percarb and medium pressure is better. Both can be done wrong and both and be done right. When we use SH we rinse with PM for Bleach or Bleach Wash to neutralize and stop the bleaching effect on the wood. I'd rather do them all this way cause so many cedar roofs are very challenging to access safely to pressure rinse. Wouldn't it be great if Bruce would chime in and offer his solution ;) He markets a soft wash without any SH. The best of both worlds.

Did you oil up the cedar roof after cleaning?
 
hmm I am from Maryland, seems I am the only one who does cedar here.. Guess im doing it "wrong"also ... You did a great job on posting a completely useless post just to start drama.. You could have worded it differently.. Wow you must be the cedar cleaning pro of the US, I mean WORLD.. you realize that's like being the tallest midget right?
 
Cedar is a different animal. Lots of variables compared to asphalt shingle cleaning. I have done a few,..some were terrible with moss and lichen,.. and others were just a simple.

There's cleaning,..and then there's CLEANING

Percarbonate and washing soda mixture, rinse,.. neutralized with light oxalic, rinse. DONE! If they want something on them, they make arrangements or I refer someone.

The ones that people let go and get covered with moss and lichen all over the edges and between the cracks leave few options on completing the job without doing something that would be considered unacceptable by many:
(1) Treat with something that will kill it and it will fall off on its own,.then go back and clean it further.
(2)Treat it then remove it by pressure washer with minimal pressure utilizing high flow washer, neutralize,..access can be difficult, (Pitch, slippery,etc..)
(3) Don't use any cleaners that are harsh enough to destroy the moss and lichen for fear of damaging the cedar,.. and just use the pressure washer with more effort and pressure

First and foremost though these jobs have to be sold as they are,..no sugar coating,...$$$,or walk away,..some guys use what they feel will get the job done and they can collect a check,..I don't blame them,...customer should have had it done long before and then educated on proper maintenance to eliminate "abusing" the roof next time to clean it.

These moss covered shingles are where I think there aren't many options on doing it "properly" At some point,..it is what it is,..and customers don't usually want to wait months for the moss and lichen to disappear,..so what other choice is there?? Walk away,Ha,Ha,..

I love learning and using what I've learned, when applicable. So I'd like to hear others' methods for doing moss and lichen covered cedar in a gentle fashion, aside from treating and waiting,..which is what I prefer,..I'm a good salesman though, Ha,Ha and don't run into many cedar jobs,..maybe 4-5 a year.

It's not a perfect World!

Jeff
Well put Jeff.
 
Jim I would like if you would chime in and explain the correct way since you did start this thread.


I talked to Jim a few days ago he's on vacation for 2 weeks so he won't respond till he gets back.
 
That would be called Hit and Run!

Well he ran off to a good place where it's in the 80's for temps!

I know for as long as I've been in wood restoration and have always cleaned wood with 12% then oiling the wood after is a must. If someone is going to spray a 12% mix on cedar shakes with no oiling after the wood will never last! As much sun as a roof sees with no oil the shakes will shrink,crack and deteriorate very quickly. You also are going to have mold growing even more quickly if not oiled. A roof is no different that a deck,fence,pergola,cedar house etc it needs to be maintained with a quality pigmented penetrating oil base sealer. I've maintained wood for almost 20 yrs now and I have cedar houses that still look good as the day I first stained them and I always use 12% to wash them before re-coating them.

I also don't always brighten after using 12% to clean but you can to help try to remove nail bleed or remove tannin stains same goes for redwood.Now if you are using sodium hydroxide to clean/strip a brightener is a must.

Is there a right way or wrong way to clean cedar?

To me spraying a strong mix of 12% like 60/40 or 50/50 and only using a water hose to rinse then walk away from it is wrong. The dead wood/mildew/moss should be killed then pressure washed at 1000-500 psi then the cedar should be oiled with a good sealer to preserve the wood.

When you let wood turn grey and you have to remove the grey dead wood the shakes get thinner and thinner till you have to replace them. If you keep the shakes sealed/stained and only have to lightly clean and re stain them the wood last a lot longer or forever if properly maintained.


Here is my cedar shake gazebo I've cleaned and re stained for the last 10 yrs never had to replace 1 cedar shake.


 
Well he ran off to a good place where it's in the 80's for temps!

I know for as long as I've been in wood restoration and have always cleaned wood with 12% then oiling the wood after is a must. If someone is going to spray a 12% mix on cedar shakes with no oiling after the wood will never last! As much sun as a roof sees with no oil the shakes will shrink,crack and deteriorate very quickly. You also are going to have mold growing even more quickly if not oiled. A roof is no different that a deck,fence,pergola,cedar house etc it needs to be maintained with a quality pigmented penetrating oil base sealer. I've maintained wood for almost 20 yrs now and I have cedar houses that still look good as the day I first stained them and I always use 12% to wash them before re-coating them.

I also don't always brighten after using 12% to clean but you can to help try to remove nail bleed or remove tannin stains same goes for redwood.Now if you are using sodium hydroxide to clean/strip a brightener is a must.

Is there a right way or wrong way to clean cedar?

To me spraying a strong mix of 12% like 60/40 or 50/50 and only using a water hose to rinse then walk away from it is wrong. The dead wood/mildew/moss should be killed then pressure washed at 1000-500 psi then the cedar should be oiled with a good sealer to preserve the wood.

When you let wood turn grey and you have to remove the grey dead wood the shakes get thinner and thinner till you have to replace them. If you keep the shakes sealed/stained and only have to lightly clean and re stain them the wood last a lot longer or forever if properly maintained.


Here is my cedar shake gazebo I've cleaned and re stained for the last 10 yrs never had to replace 1 cedar shake.



Beautiful job Shane.
 
Well he ran off to a good place where it's in the 80's for temps!

I know for as long as I've been in wood restoration and have always cleaned wood with 12% then oiling the wood after is a must. If someone is going to spray a 12% mix on cedar shakes with no oiling after the wood will never last! As much sun as a roof sees with no oil the shakes will shrink,crack and deteriorate very quickly. You also are going to have mold growing even more quickly if not oiled. A roof is no different that a deck,fence,pergola,cedar house etc it needs to be maintained with a quality pigmented penetrating oil base sealer. I've maintained wood for almost 20 yrs now and I have cedar houses that still look good as the day I first stained them and I always use 12% to wash them before re-coating them.

I also don't always brighten after using 12% to clean but you can to help try to remove nail bleed or remove tannin stains same goes for redwood.Now if you are using sodium hydroxide to clean/strip a brightener is a must.

Is there a right way or wrong way to clean cedar?

To me spraying a strong mix of 12% like 60/40 or 50/50 and only using a water hose to rinse then walk away from it is wrong. The dead wood/mildew/moss should be killed then pressure washed at 1000-500 psi then the cedar should be oiled with a good sealer to preserve the wood.

When you let wood turn grey and you have to remove the grey dead wood the shakes get thinner and thinner till you have to replace them. If you keep the shakes sealed/stained and only have to lightly clean and re stain them the wood last a lot longer or forever if properly maintained.


Here is my cedar shake gazebo I've cleaned and re stained for the last 10 yrs never had to replace 1 cedar shake.



Show off...lol. Beautiful job Shane. By you didn't do http today huh? Nasty day.
 
Thanks Ralph and Doug!

Hell no it was work on some equipment day in the shop!

I should get back to work Wed I have a deck strip to do and some jobs I hope to stain later in the week they starting to back up.
 
Thanks Ralph and Doug!

Hell no it was work on some equipment day in the shop!

I should get back to work Wed I have a deck strip to do and some jobs I hope to stain later in the week they starting to back up.

We got a roof house and driveway in. Trying it stay on schedule.

image.jpg
 
Hey Shane,..I agree with you on the spraying and walking away being the wrong way to do cedar,..but,..let me bounce this off of you. What if you have a steep, limited access cedar roof covered in moss and lichen and the customer isn't going to pay anyone to do it the proper way,...Real Question: Is it better to leave the moss and lichen on there or is it better to have it treated so it falls off over time, considering they also won't spend the money on having it oiled? Although I obviously have an opinion here,..this is a real question,..I really don't know which is better for the integrity of the roof.

I think your average home buyer who buys a house with a cedar roof doesn't understand the amount of DIY labor and ability it takes to care for a cedar roof,..I think it's overlooked as maintenance free,..then in 10 years when it's covered in growth, and it starts to look bad they decide to do something about it,..then they get some estimates that go into the thousands,....So now what?

Of the handful of cedar roofs I've done over the years no one wanted to spend the money to do it what would be considered the proper way form beginning to end. I've done some smaller easy access roofs,..with basically what you mentioned,..minus the oiling,....and then I've done ones where I sprayed and walked away. Why?...Because these customers weren't ever gonna pay anyone to do it right,..and I always figured doing it this way helped some,..at least in appearance. I know a few of my customers said they will do low cost maintenance on the cedar then when it's time they will switch to asphalt or metal.

Jeff
 
While I look forward to Jim's return and responses I will chime in here at length regarding many of the topics brought up in this thread as well as the thread recently posted by Pete Marentay regarding bleach. Jim and I have had our go rounds about the misuse (not so much use) of bleach in the past and it seems that every winter this subject pops up. For the record, I hold Jim in high esteem and in my opinion his knowledge regarding wood restoration is second to none.

First, chlorine is the most used chemical and with that being stated it is also the most misused chemical. I am sure we have seen examples of such when performing estimates as well as visiting locations in our day to day lives. Secondly, it is a fact that chlorine breaks down the lignin (glue like substance that holds the wood together) separating it from the pulp. The biggest example of this is in making paper products. However, with that being said the "true" guru of wood restoration and the industry as a whole was Sam Williams of the Forest Products Laboratory who have determined the standards for the industry. According to the Forest Products Laboratory they recommend deck cleaners but also a "home recipe" of Soap, Household Chlorine Bleach, and Water. I know for a fact that this is how Sam used to clean his own deck. The reason they say household bleach is that in studies it has been documented that 3% bleach content was enough to kill mold and mildew on wood surfaces. Please refer to page 11 of the following document, http://www.mchd.com/pdf/woodpr.pdf .
Now to address the uses of bleach and quite frankly most other chemical usage. I feel a lot of inexperienced and new folks to the business misuse chlorine bleach. It could be because of the contractors who clean roofs that use a higher concentrate of bleach to clean roofs and merely use the same solution on decks. Please do not say this does not happen because I see people post that they do this all the time. I also think that even in house and building washing that higher solutions are used more often to avoid climbing ladders, aid in soft washing, and to get the job done quicker. The extra money spent in chemicals offsets the time in labor. These heavier doses of chlorine bleach is not necessarily good for the wood but we need to take a closer look at each job and what the desired out come is. I have always recommended and always will that the least amount of chemicals used to get the job done is the best method. I don't care if it is concrete cleaning or wood restoration. If you can get away with hot water only on concrete to get clean it is better for the environment. If we can restore the wood with an oxygenated bleach instead of chlorine bleach then I believe that is the best method. The issue however that complicate these situations is ultimately neglect and lack of maintenance. In these cases we need to look at cleaning and restoration on an individual basis. We have all heard of the good, better, and best methods to accomplish an desired outcome and we need to apply that in these situations. Let's take concrete first where we may have a well maintained property that only requires periodic frequent cleanings with hot water, then we have a so-so maintained property that requires light chemical usage, and poorly maintained property with heavy mold, mildew, dirt, debris, rust, gum etc. that need an arsenal of equipment and products. This is the same in wood restoration regarding how well maintained the wood is. If the wood surfaces are well maintained and we can use an oxygenated bleach, brighten, and re-coat then I am all for it. If however the customer has not maintained it according to guidelines and it is say 2 to 3 years past re-coating it may need a diluted content of chlorinated bleach to effectively kill of the mold, mildew, moss, lichen, whatever to achieve the desired results. If it has been poorly maintained it may need that arsenal of products and equipment. For example, I have done decks and wood homes where we had to use a sodium hydroxide based stripper to remove everything from surfaces and STILL had to bleach to kill mold and mildew spores that were deeply embedded in the wood. This frequently happens with wood that has been neglected over 10 years. Remember, bleach reacts with the first thing it comes in contact with so if there is a real heavy build up this may be the "best" method to get the wood back to where it will be consistent and clean for re-coating and preservation. Regarding cedar roofs and any other wood surfaces, I have never met anyone from the wood industry at the Forest Products Lab or the Manufacturers that would suggest cleaning the wood and NOT putting some type of preservative on it. They would tell you you were better of leaving it alone. With that being said there are exceptions to EVERY rule and Ipe would fall into this category.
Think of it in terms of medicine and an illness. There are many different types of medicines and doses a doctor can prescribe. One doctor may prescribe one medicine and dosage for the same illness that another doctor may prescribe a completely different medication and dosage. The result being you get well as an outcome. In taking the medicine as prescribed you are following recommendations and if you aren't getting better the doctor may increase the dosage (Sound like bleach usage?). One thing for sure though is that you are not supposed to take the whole vial of medicine at one time thinking that if you did you would immediately feel better. An overdose is obviously too much and with wood and concrete alike an overdose of chemical usage. We have all seen property owners go right for muriatic acid when it wasn't needed and seen the damage. Same can be applied to misuse of both sodium hypochlorite and sodium hydroxide in wood. I have seen burned and furred up from chemicals mixed too strong and left on wood surfaces too long. I have seen bleach misused more times than I can count from "white" wood, "tie dyed" wood, and furred wood.
In regards to brightening and oxalic acid, I strongly believe in using it in every situation because it serves three purposes, not one. First, the most desired reason is that it "brightens" the wood and is a must after using a stripper. Secondly, it is excellent in neutralizing iron and metal stains, If you are using bleach and lighten the wood especially on a fence, you will expose these stains even more prominently effecting the end result after sealing or staining. The third, is that it opens the pores of the wood and helps with penetration of the products. Think of concrete restoration, it is always recommended to acid etch the concrete to open up the pores of the concrete before re-staining or dying of the concrete. Same principle in wood restoration.
In summary, we need to understand that in wood restoration (as it is in other areas of cleaning and restoration) that each job is evaluated on an individual situation. There are times when a heavier does of chlorine bleach will need to be used because of the neglect of maintenance. What we need to become better at is educating ourselves as to what is enough to get the job done and what is too much. I personally do not clean or strip any job if I am not putting a coating on it which is how I run my company. Sorry for the long response but I thought one was needed, please let's have a civil discussion regarding this topic though as I have seen this topic go in different direction too many times. I will say that I do love seeing the results of so many of my friends and peers on these boards knowing that we all do not perform our services exactly the same!
 
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I have done cedar roofs both ways. No doubt in my mind that soft washing with SH is easier but cleaning with sodium percarb and medium pressure is better. Both can be done wrong and both and be done right. When we use SH we rinse with PM for Bleach or Bleach Wash to neutralize and stop the bleaching effect on the wood. I'd rather do them all this way cause so many cedar roofs are very challenging to access safely to pressure rinse. Wouldn't it be great if Bruce would chime in and offer his solution ;) He markets a soft wash without any SH. The best of both worlds.
I don't post much on here because for some reason this forum will only let me type continuously with no return function or start a new paragraph. That said. In the last few years we clean cedar solely other than a few asphalt etc. from realtors. I am not a wood expert and do not claim to be. I have made my mistakes learning my present process. As to bleach/SH, yes you can clean cedar with bleach but you had better rinse, rinse, rinse or you'll do more damage than good. Cedar does have a 3% natural oil content that does leech out and rehydration with oil will help. One has to remember there is a difference between a restoration and a cleaning. You need to educate your home owner to such. That said, cedar on it's own will not decay. It takes moisture and some form of infestation to decay cedar. There has been so much debate about this subject i.e. cleaning cedar the proper way. All I can say is I started cleaning cedar in 2010 and those roofs I cleaned back then are doing fine today or let's say the home owners are pleased with the results. In the end that what's counts. Does the roof still function properly? Did the cleaning extend the lifespan? I respectfully agree to disagree when it comes to soft washing a cedar roof, you can soft wash a cedar roof effectively. We clean anywhere from a 100 to 125 cedar roofs a season with a soft wash process, throughout the Midwest, and have yet had any complaints. Of course your cleaning mix and process is key. I have tried them all over the years and ended up developing my own mix and soft wash process, which works fine for me. I don't share such for business reasons, nothing personal. Nor do I care to debate or argue the proper process. I respect everyone's own process and wish them the best in this service market. We can all be passionate about what or how we do something, agree to disagree, but to take a solid stand on one process can only harm the overall service in the end because the home owners will only become confused. I have seen some of the other cleaners that clean cedar do a very good job with their process. In the end most cedar shakes home owners do not want to have to replace their roof prematurely. There is a big demand for cedar cleaning and plenty of work to go around. I hope to see many more cleaners add this service. It can only help educate the cedar shakes home owners that there is benefit to maintaining your cedar roof.
 
I don't post much on here because for some reason this forum will only let me type continuously with no return function or start a new paragraph. That said. In the last few years we clean cedar solely other than a few asphalt etc. from realtors. I am not a wood expert and do not claim to be. I have made my mistakes learning my present process. As to bleach/SH, yes you can clean cedar with bleach but you had better rinse, rinse, rinse or you'll do more damage than good. Cedar does have a 3% natural oil content that does leech out and rehydration with oil will help. One has to remember there is a difference between a restoration and a cleaning. You need to educate your home owner to such. That said, cedar on it's own will not decay. It takes moisture and some form of infestation to decay cedar. There has been so much debate about this subject i.e. cleaning cedar the proper way. All I can say is I started cleaning cedar in 2010 and those roofs I cleaned back then are doing fine today or let's say the home owners are pleased with the results. In the end that what's counts. Does the roof still function properly? Did the cleaning extend the lifespan? I respectfully agree to disagree when it comes to soft washing a cedar roof, you can soft wash a cedar roof effectively. We clean anywhere from a 100 to 125 cedar roofs a season with a soft wash process, throughout the Midwest, and have yet had any complaints. Of course your cleaning mix and process is key. I have tried them all over the years and ended up developing my own mix and soft wash process, which works fine for me. I don't share such for business reasons, nothing personal. Nor do I care to debate or argue the proper process. I respect everyone's own process and wish them the best in this service market. We can all be passionate about what or how we do something, agree to disagree, but to take a solid stand on one process can only harm the overall service in the end because the home owners will only become confused. I have seen some of the other cleaners that clean cedar do a very good job with their process. In the end most cedar shakes home owners do not want to have to replace their roof prematurely. There is a big demand for cedar cleaning and plenty of work to go around. I hope to see many more cleaners add this service. It can only help educate the cedar shakes home owners that there is benefit to maintaining your cedar roof.

Working on that problem


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