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  1. #1
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    Post Softwash revolution or restitution ?

    This wood issue with bleaching cedar shakes or any wood is out of control and needs to be stopped now . I am reporting it to the Consumer Affairs division in my state to stop this fraud on the public trust. All organizations should be banning this practice before it comes back to bite the industry in the ass .Its on you tube, Facebook, peoples videos, web sites, people are being trained to do it . Wood people ban together and blog against it. People who know its wrong blog against it !
    Report them to your them ConsumerAffairs division in your state.

    This process is the worst thing I have ever seen in my twenty 20 years in the industry.


    Jim Foley, Owner/Operator
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  • #2
    Exterior Restoration Specialist 21000 PLUS POSTER Ron Musgraves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Jim View Post
    This wood issue with bleaching cedar shakes or any wood is out of control and needs to be stopped now . I am reporting it to the Consumer Affairs division in my state to stop this fraud on the public trust. All organizations should be banning this practice before it comes back to bite the industry in the ass .Its on you tube, Facebook, peoples videos, web sites, people are being trained to do it . Wood people ban together and blog against it. People who know its wrong blog against it !
    Report them to your them ConsumerAffairs division in your state.

    This process is the worst thing I have ever seen in my twenty 20 years in the industry.
    Why not Work together to Change this Jim?

    Rather than have more Fighting lets Bring Science and the Industry together to better the problem.

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  • #3
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    Okay. I respect your opinion. Have I used bleach to clean cedar in the past, along with other products yes. Are there alternatives yes. I see a lot of cleaners using bleach or SH, whatever name one wants to go by, and they have done a good job. Unfortunately the use of such has been promoted by many organizations. example: http://www.wrcea.org/technical-speci..._WRC_Decks.pdf Also in this one they say you should never use a power washer. But we all know you can clean cedar with a power washer if done right. Should we go after the power washer also? Here is an organization that is well respected in the cedar world: http://texasforestservice.tamu.edu/u...s_Shingles.pdf See what they recommend, bleach or a bleaching solution! I am a cedar roof cleaner and I don't use SH anymore myself but for those that do, if done right, I don't see the big concern? Of course if there is an issue with cleaning cedar with bleach/SH and the Government gets involved I can see the use of any bleach/SH becoming an issue with any type of roof cleaning or house washer for that matter. For me it isn't a concern but for those other cleaners it may well be. This maybe one of those issue " be careful what you wish for you may just get it ". I would hope there is another way to approach this without getting the State or Federal Government involved. I cannot speak for others but I have not had good results with Government regulations. Good luck.

    Sullivan Roof Cleaning, Inc.,
    Bruce Sullivan,
    Des Moines, Iowa,

  • #4
    Graphic Designer Professor with Tenure "Red"'s Avatar
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    Is this just another 'hit and run' drama thread or are you actually going to educate the masses? 6 weeks ago you brought this up and I was eager to learn from (possibly) one of the industry leaders on the subject, but nothing has been shared yet and now it's turning into threats. Save the drama for your momma and get on with the education. I'll gladly follow your lead as I have no experience (zip, zilch, nada) in the wood restoration area.
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  • #5
    Exterior Restoration Specialist 21000 PLUS POSTER Ron Musgraves's Avatar
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    I do not Think Jim is Saying there is not a Safe Use for This in Maint. But I think a False sense of professional discloser to consumer as to how Safe?

    Maybe I'm Wrong but I think Like all things in the Industry could the Leaders Present both sides?
    Ron Musgraves


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  • #6
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    There is no fighting and nothing to fight about its wrong and it's out of control now. The science is there now and people no it . You know it ! Bleach sucks the life out of wood and decreases the life out of it . just the opposite of what's being claimed . This group is out of control and giving false information. I have people sending me video now . I'm working on things and talking to other wood people . Joe public is being ripped now. It 's nuts!!!

    You can stop them Ron they are Uamcc people . Where's the science for it? All of the sudden ,out of No where is ok to bleach the crap out of wood. It's crazy it's so stupid and everyone just watches like dumb asses.

    Frist thing is my State . I need to warn my future customers against this process. Then all the cedar associations .


    Jim Foley, Owner/Operator
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  • #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by "Red" View Post
    Is this just another 'hit and run' drama thread or are you actually going to educate the masses? 6 weeks ago you brought this up and I was eager to learn from (possibly) one of the industry leaders on the subject, but nothing has been shared yet and now it's turning into threats. Save the drama for your momma and get on with the education. I'll gladly follow your lead as I have no experience (zip, zilch, nada) in the wood restoration area.
    What I learned I learned on my own mostly trial and error, error being the key word. LOL There is a ton of information out there about wood cleaning/restoration start with the link above the texasforestservice and also the cedarbureau.org and go from there. Personally when I started out I didn't have much luck learning from others and I didn't blame them as it was business nothing personal. I believe also that some read or see stuff concerning a subject matter and don't always know how to separate the facts from good marketing. We all know that marketing is a separate art form. That's not to say the product or service doesn't have value, just that marketing is about putting it in the best light possible. Personally I don't know that much myself about wood cleaning/restoration because I only service wood roofs, mostly redwood/cedar. Personally what I use for my service works for me but may not for others or we may agree to disagree, that's fine. But I also don't do roof cleaning training either. Don't consider myself qualified. Though I do understand marketing. Good luck with your wood cleaning goals it is a good service.

    Sullivan Roof Cleaning, Inc.,
    Bruce Sullivan,
    Des Moines, Iowa,

  • #8
    Member Graduate Student Michael DeRose's Avatar
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    Jim you are approaching this all wrong. I am pretty sure that there is wood guys that use bleach to clean wood. Stop the hate and educate.

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  • #9
    Member Graduate Student Everett Abrams's Avatar
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    I want to first address this by stating that the Forest Product Laboratory which is part of the Department of Agriculture is the leading authority when it comes to standards for the industry and Sam Williams and the Joint Coatings Committee have written many of the standards today. Technology and processes are moving forward at such a fast rate that it is hard to create a standard at one point in time and then apply it down the road. There has never been a standard for pressure washing by this group and one that Sam Williams did want at one point. He is retired and to my knowledge this was never accomplished. The WCRLA has come out with a policy to "not use a pressure washer" because of the overall damage that is done when using this equipment. Their reasoning is that if they discourage the use then it will get rid of the damage. This, in my opinion, is absurd because anyone with knowledge of the equipment and use of a nozzle chart one can use a pressure washer professionally and responsibly by using the equipment as nothing more than a giant rinsing tool which saves time and labor. Another advantage to this equipment is that basic chemicals left to long on wood without rinsing and/or neutralizing can burn or damage the wood. Chemicals that are too strong will cause wood to fuzz up, specifically softwoods like cedar. Using a pressure washer one can rinse surfaces very quickly. Personally, I feel that educating people on exactly how to use a pressure washer for wood restoration would be more responsible than just saying that because most of the damage done to cedar involves the use of a pressure washer. My guess would be that ANY homeowner or contractor that uses a pressure washer for the first time without the right knowledge will cause damage to cedar. There is a lot of misinformation out there and specifically on You Tube videos that if a person watched some of these would cause extensive damage to their cedar sided home. In regards to the links mentioned above the one from Texas I would not agree with in it's totality either as it recommends a 15 degree tip on cedar which I am not aware of any "wood" guy that uses a 15 degree tip. Again personally, I do not recommend anything except a 40 degree tip and then a variety of 40 degree nozzles with different orifices to regulate pressure up or down. I also feel that depending on how many coats of product is on the wood surface you will use a little more pressure but not much more. The idea with wood is the least amount of chemical and pressure to get the job done all the while relying on dwell times.

    Regarding bleach and other chemicals in wood restoration the standard I recognize is the one by the Forest Products Laboratory that recommends a generic solution using household bleach http://www.mchd.com/pdf/woodpr.pdf. You may ask why they recommend this? It is because they have done extensive testing and found that 3%-3.5% bleach effectively killed mold and mildew on the wood surfaces for coating. There was no reason to go to a higher dilution rate or a stronger product. This is not one of those situations where because 5% household bleach is recommended that using 12.5% or 3:2 is better. Now with that being stated I do not know anyone in particulars methods or products so if you are using 12.5% chlorine bleach in your solution and by the time your solution is mixed and applied the actual percentage applied to a surface is unknown to me. I am only speaking regarding testing and results on the matter.

    Regarding cleaning wood vs. restoring wood in the links above or the Forest Products Laboratory Standard applying a preservative is best for the longevity and extending the life of the wood. What is proven is that if you are applying a basic chemical to the wood you are changing the ph in the wood. This one reason why wood brighteners are used, which is to neutralize the surfaces for coating. A wood surface and coating may be adversely affected by a surface that is high in ph and not neutralized or rinsed thoroughly.

    I think there is a lot of work that needs to be done amongst folks to get to common ground if that can take place. I unfortunately think there are going to be two different camps on this at the end of the day. I will end stating that chemicals and the products we use can work wonders and help us achieve great results the problem, like anything else, is when they are misused and damage occurs. This is where we should work together in coming up with solutions that in the end do not cause damage and any type of regulation like the WRCLA has come out with regarding the use of a pressure washer.

    http://www.mchd.com/pdf/woodpr.pdf
    Everett Abrams
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  • #10
    Member Graduate Student Everett Abrams's Avatar
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    Correct me if I am wrong here but Jim is an advocate of bleach what he is talking about is the misuse of bleach and higher rates of bleach that are applied and left. Is there anyone out there saying that bleach CAN NOT cause damage to wood? Is there anyone saying that it doesn't matter how much bleach to apply to wood that no matter how much it won't hurt the wood? I think Jim is trying to say that there is threshold where too much is not good.
    Everett Abrams
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  • #11
    Member Graduate Student Seymore_BlEaCh's Avatar
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    I use bleach all the time to clean wood but if you don't preserve the wood you are pissing in the wind!

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  • #12
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    I have no hate just trying to protect the consumer and the contractor who do it correct.Im the easiest person to talk to and highly knowledgeable concerning the subjects stone ,wood and roof cleaning. I've educated 100's of contractors through my methods and processes over the years. People still contact me concerning cedar shakes from the cleaner time article years ago. I started the BDA so this pains me.

    Go throw some cedar shakes or some soft wood in a bucket of bleach . Leave it for 5 minutes, a piece for 10 and one for a 30 minutes. See the results . Let it dry . Dip them in water a see how much water they absorb . see how much more the 30 minute one absorbs. Do the process again and see the effects of bleaching wood.


    Jim Foley, Owner/Operator
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    203-754-4284 or 860-354-0855

  • #13
    Member Graduate Student Michael DeRose's Avatar
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    Jim is there a difference between cleaning and restoration?

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  • #14
    Member Graduate Student Ed Thompson's Avatar
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    You can't just bring an issue to the Consumer Affairs. You will have to name names Jim. We're all just trying to make a living here. No one is maliciously using bleach with intent to destroy. I can feel your passion but you'd get much better results selling a better way rather than campaigning against the alleged wrong way. I already stated in another thread that I'd be glad to help get your message across. I make decent grade B videos and kind of know how to get it found. I need a script and roughly 12-15 pics. I can even download it to your Youtube account and you can link your web to it.

  • #15
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    Restoration of wood is cleaning , stripping , sanding , maybe repairs, and then protecting it with a sealer . That is a simple answer.

    Cleaninging with bleach removes mold and mildew from a surface. Most surfaces are solid that we clean . So its a shoot and rinse .The two that are absorbent are stone and wood . Stone cleans up nice with bleach. Wood gets much more absorbent as is ages . So the mold will also get deeper on certain types ( shakes). Bleach attacks the wood fibers drying it out. You can't tell the damage you have done on a house or roof but now the moisture will even goes deeper a mildew will form faster .if you protect it will an oil after cleaning with bleach your protecting it and keeping the moisture out . That is a simple answer too .


    Jim Foley, Owner/Operator
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  • #16
    Member Honorary Professor AC Lockyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Jim View Post
    This wood issue with bleaching cedar shakes or any wood is out of control and needs to be stopped now . I am reporting it to the Consumer Affairs division in my state to stop this fraud on the public trust. All organizations should be banning this practice before it comes back to bite the industry in the ass .Its on you tube, Facebook, peoples videos, web sites, people are being trained to do it . Wood people ban together and blog against it. People who know its wrong blog against it !
    Report them to your them ConsumerAffairs division in your state.

    This process is the worst thing I have ever seen in my twenty 20 years in the industry.
    Yawn...
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  • #17
    Member Graduate Student
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    Fart...


    Jim Foley, Owner/Operator
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  • #18
    Exterior Restoration Specialist 21000 PLUS POSTER Ron Musgraves's Avatar
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    Ac Lockyer , Jim Foley , Ed Thompson & Everett Abrams you guys are all respected pros in the industry. Ac Teaches Roof Cleaning, Everett wrote the book on Wood restoration.

    Would this be a Better resolve as Experts to sit down have a cup of coffee face to face and talk?

    New Jersey 5th & 6th Jim will Be ready to explain in person. Give anyone who wants to interject Facts professionally and Science.

    We Need to resolve things rather than Start world war 3
    Ron Musgraves


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  • #19
    Administrator Professor with Tenure Steven Button's Avatar
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    I would love to see these guys, with their proven knowledge, experience and success come together to reach a consensus.


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  • #20
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    I'm there can't wait and i'll wear my bleached holy jeans as a reminder .

    Lets call it Pulp Fiction - true or false ?


    Jim Foley, Owner/Operator
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