10 GPM Through 200' x 3/8" Hose

I have to defer to you guys who are much smarter on these issues than I am.

On a truck we use only for specific tasks, I'd like the option for higher flow.

Right now I'm using the 20hp Honda with a ts2021 and a 8 3/4 pulley. I've got 250 ft of 3/8 and 250 ft of 1/4 inch on it. The guys love the 1/4 inch. I believe I'm getting around 6 gpm and it feels like about 2000 psi but I haven't checked it. I'm using #9 tips.

I have a TSF2221 8.5/10.2 gpm pump @ 1450/1750 I plan on putting on it tomorrow. If the math is right I should be able to get about 9gpm using an 8 1/4 pulley and probably push the Honda to it's limit.

Do you think I'll still be able to squeeze near 1800 psi out of it using the same hoses? 1800 should be sufficient for most jobs.

Flow is more important than psi on this truck.

Another option would be to get a 7 1/2 inch pulley (for 10.2 gpm), put 3/8 hose on it for 475 ft and run 1/4 inch the last 25 ft and run a 15 tip. Would that even work? Sounds like anything over ten gpm causes problems with 3/8 inch hose. I can't expect the guys to hoist 1/2 inch hose up 3 or more stories multiple times per day. Could I get 1800 psi or more with that setup?

My brain is on shutdown right now thinking about it. Thanks for the help.
 
Wow, 1/4" hose. Now that would be a dream come true...

Mike
 
Tony Shelton said:
I have to defer to you guys who are much smarter on these issues than I am.

On a truck we use only for specific tasks, I'd like the option for higher flow.

Right now I'm using the 20hp Honda with a ts2021 and a 8 3/4 pulley. I've got 250 ft of 3/8 and 250 ft of 1/4 inch on it. The guys love the 1/4 inch. I believe I'm getting around 6 gpm and it feels like about 2000 psi but I haven't checked it. I'm using #9 tips.

I have a TSF2221 8.5/10.2 gpm pump @ 1450/1750 I plan on putting on it tomorrow. If the math is right I should be able to get about 9gpm using an 8 1/4 pulley and probably push the Honda to it's limit.

Do you think I'll still be able to squeeze near 1800 psi out of it using the same hoses? 1800 should be sufficient for most jobs.

Flow is more important than psi on this truck.

Another option would be to get a 7 1/2 inch pulley (for 10.2 gpm), put 3/8 hose on it for 475 ft and run 1/4 inch the last 25 ft and run a 15 tip. Would that even work? Sounds like anything over ten gpm causes problems with 3/8 inch hose. I can't expect the guys to hoist 1/2 inch hose up 3 or more stories multiple times per day. Could I get 1800 psi or more with that setup?

My brain is on shutdown right now thinking about it. Thanks for the help.
Click to expand...
I can't find any friction loss charts that have 1/4 hose past 3 gpm. with that you lose 380 psi. I can only imaging that you are losing at least 800 psi per hundred feet of 1/4 inch hose with 9 gpms. Don't think you are going to get 1800 psi with 250 feet of 1/4 inch hose

http://www.catpumps.com/products/pdfs/993415A_REF_Hose Friction Loss.pdf
 
Ok,.for anyone who may be interested,..I have searched about as much as I can on this idea that the GX630 and GX690 are the same engine. I was looking for typos and things like that.

According to Data and Part Numbers,..these engines have the same exact:
688cc
Carburetor
coil
camshaft
Air Cleaner
Bore and Stroke
Compression ratio
Pretty much everything except crank diameter

And most importantly the data that determines HP,..because HP is not measured,.. it is calculated using factors that are measurable,. Torque and Engine speed.

I've seen a few sites stating that the advertised HP is NET HP,..not Gross HP,..and that the GX630 is 24.5 gross HP. And the GX690 is 26.

But, until I see some actual data (Not Experiences) but data,.. as to why the GX690 is a bigger engine than the GX630 I am gonna say they are the same exact engine aside from the crank diameter,..and the sticker they use to denote each engine.

All the data I have seen shows me these engines are the same and are both actually 24 HP,..the HP math shows that and is hard to dispute I think. I guess all three of these models are the same yet I think Honda wants to give a broader choice? And they can make one engine with the same specs instead of (3),..and as long as they keep the power more than advertised they are good I guess.

The GX630- GX660-GX690 are all 24 HP gross. And the highest rating is at 22.1 of advertised HP.

Still gonna keep looking and asking,Ha,Ha,..

Jeff
 
814jeffw said:
Ok,.for anyone who may be interested,..I have searched about as much as I can on this idea that the GX630 and GX690 are the same engine. I was looking for typos and things like that.

According to Data and Part Numbers,..these engines have the same exact:
688cc
Carburetor
coil
camshaft
Air Cleaner
Bore and Stroke
Compression ratio
Pretty much everything except crank diameter

And most importantly the data that determines HP,..because HP is not measured,.. it is calculated using factors that are measurable,. Torque and Engine speed.

I've seen a few sites stating that the advertised HP is NET HP,..not Gross HP,..and that the GX630 is 24.5 gross HP. And the GX690 is 26.

But, until I see some actual data (Not Experiences) but data,.. as to why the GX690 is a bigger engine than the GX630 I am gonna say they are the same exact engine aside from the crank diameter,..and the sticker they use to denote each engine.

All the data I have seen shows me these engines are the same and are both actually 24 HP,..the HP math shows that and is hard to dispute I think. I guess all three of these models are the same yet I think Honda wants to give a broader choice? And they can make one engine with the same specs instead of (3),..and as long as they keep the power more than advertised they are good I guess.

The GX630- GX660-GX690 are all 24 HP gross. And the highest rating is at 22.1 of advertised HP.

Still gonna keep looking and asking,Ha,Ha,..

Jeff
Click to expand...
It's whacky. Northern tool has the specs at 20.8 net hp for the 630 and 22.1 for the 690 but all the other numbers are the same LOL I think there is a scam going on.
 
Hey Ralph, yea I agree,..but I think as long as the engine is delivering at least the stated HP they are likely not technically scamming. More like misleading in a sense. If people pay more for the GX690,.when they could actually get the same engine for a few hundred dollars cheaper. Is that a scam?? I don't know,Ha,Ha,.. Probably not,..because they bought an engine that was up to specs.

The specs just aren't showing it where the difference in power would be. I was actually hoping someone would chime in with something I could hang my hat on as tangible proof as to where the extra advertised 1.3 HP is coming from between the two engines. I'm not even sure what would convince me anyhow,..because the formula to find HP is the end result or the "Last Word" anyhow as far as I'm concerned,..at least at this point.

Honda's own site shows all the numbers the same as well. And I looked up numerous parts and the part numbers are all the same, Ha,Ha,.

At face value I would have figured the GX690 piston was bigger, or the compression ratio was higher or a different carb,..and the torque would have been a few points above,..or SOMETHING,..I was actually surprised to see these specs mirror each other.

Yea,..whacky as you put it is a good way to look at it. I think I'm just gonna order a 690 sticker and call it good.

Here is Honda's comparison page:


http://engines.honda.com/models/compare/gx630,gx690


Jeff
 
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814jeffw said:
Hey Ralph, yea I agree,..but I think as long as the engine is delivering at least the stated HP they are likely not technically scamming. More like misleading in a sense. If people pay more for the GX690,.when they could actually get the same engine for a few hundred dollars cheaper. Is that a scam?? I don't know,Ha,Ha,.. Probably not,..because they bought an engine that was up to specs.

The specs just aren't showing it where the difference in power would be. I was actually hoping someone would chime in with something I could hang my hat on as tangible proof as to where the extra advertised 1.3 HP is coming from between the two engines. I'm not even sure what would convince me anyhow,..because the formula to find HP is the end result or the "Last Word" anyhow as far as I'm concerned,..at least at this point.

Honda's own site shows all the numbers the same as well. And I looked up numerous parts and the part numbers are all the same, Ha,Ha,.

At face value I would have figured the GX690 piston was bigger, or the compression ratio was higher or a different carb,..and the torque would have been a few points above,..or SOMETHING,..I was actually surprised to see these specs mirror each other.

Yea,..whacky as you put it is a good way to look at it. I think I'm just gonna order a 690 sticker and call it good.

Here is Honda's comparison page:


http://engines.honda.com/models/compare/gx630,gx690


Jeff
Click to expand...
I am going to ask Russ, Bill Wilson or Paul Kassander on one of the facebook groups. I mean it should be obvious to tons of people when they go to set the unloader if they get the same hp out of an engine. I wish I could test it , but unfortunately I bought a udor 2500 10 gpm for the predator engine, and a udor 3000 10 gpm for my gx690. I could probably slap one of those adapters on the gx 630 and see if I get the same pressure on the udor 3000 psi as I do with the gx690 If they both max out at 2850 then that will answer the question
.
 
I agree Ralph,.I feel like I'm missing something,..I am definitely no expert,..but man,..it just seems clear I guess.

As far as testing goes, I would like to see results of a controlled test with brand new engines and all else being equal. Just a swap out.

BUT,.. at this point I would REALLY like to see the component or factor that makes it a stronger engine.


Jeff
 
pwrick said:
That is a really interesting question concerning the GX630 vs GX690 engines and water flow. I've got a 630, and have been brainstorming how to set up my rig for next year.

For those who upgraded from 1" to 1.5" feed lines, from 3/8" to 1/2" whip lines from pump to reel, and went from 3/8" to 1/2" hose for all or part of your high pressure hose, what kind of difference did you see or feel?
Click to expand...
Is there a ppint tp having a larger feed line than what ypur pump will accept?

Sent from my SM-N930T using Tapatalk
 
814jeffw said:
Ok,.for anyone who may be interested,..I have searched about as much as I can on this idea that the GX630 and GX690 are the same engine. I was looking for typos and things like that.

According to Data and Part Numbers,..these engines have the same exact:
688cc
Carburetor
coil
camshaft
Air Cleaner
Bore and Stroke
Compression ratio
Pretty much everything except crank diameter

And most importantly the data that determines HP,..because HP is not measured,.. it is calculated using factors that are measurable,. Torque and Engine speed.

I've seen a few sites stating that the advertised HP is NET HP,..not Gross HP,..and that the GX630 is 24.5 gross HP. And the GX690 is 26.

But, until I see some actual data (Not Experiences) but data,.. as to why the GX690 is a bigger engine than the GX630 I am gonna say they are the same exact engine aside from the crank diameter,..and the sticker they use to denote each engine.

All the data I have seen shows me these engines are the same and are both actually 24 HP,..the HP math shows that and is hard to dispute I think. I guess all three of these models are the same yet I think Honda wants to give a broader choice? And they can make one engine with the same specs instead of (3),..and as long as they keep the power more than advertised they are good I guess.

The GX630- GX660-GX690 are all 24 HP gross. And the highest rating is at 22.1 of advertised HP.

Still gonna keep looking and asking,Ha,Ha,..

Jeff
Click to expand...

A distributor and person with alot more technical knowledge then me said he went through the two engines part by part and the "difference" between them was only the carb jets.
 
socalkol said:
A distributor and person with alot more technical knowledge then me said he went through the two engines part by part and the "difference" between them was only the carb jets.
Click to expand...


Thanks Jeff,..Much appreciate that input,...In this thread somewhere that was one of my inklings,..and would make sense as that's one of the things we don't have a number on,. I tried to look it up but didn't find anything conclusive on the jet sizes. I think they may make different sizes for different applications,..because when you look up the jet size in parts,..it gives a handful of choices. I think you need to order these according to the serial number,..because I know they make different models for engines that are in a really dirty environment,..they have oversized air cleaners or something.

But the only thing I don't get is the torque numbers are still the same,..you'd think the jets would make the numbers change. Because it still comes out to the same HP if you do the calculation with the spec numbers. But maybe the jets make the difference at WOT, making the extra 1.3 HP???

But either way,..I agree that the jets are likely larger in the GX690,.and does mostly clear it up.

Bolt on power like jets makes sense to where the minor extra HP comes from.
I will check into the jets more closely now and see if I can find some size numbers between the two.

EDIT: In this parts manual,http://www.lindec.com/download/14043667571_Honda_GX630-660-690-workshop_manual.pdf go to "Service Information" 21/149 The jets are different for each engine. The GX630 shows a different size for each cylinder,..which I find odd in itself.

GX630 no.1 cylinder #102 cylinder no.2 #105

GX660 shows #112 for both

GX690 shows #118 for both

May also need to change the main nozzle?

I wondered about the plug due to more fuel going into the chamber on the GX690,.but they are listed the same for each engine.


Jeff
 
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May also be for different altitude applications where larger jets may cause an over rich or too lean of a fuel charge.

Mike
 
Just FYI, am getting 1400 psi with 300ft 3/8 + 250 ft 1/4 inch using 4009 nozzle. With barely a dribble from the unloader. Waiting for feedback from they guys using it today.

4c4bec8da6f3fb0691e100482c604573.jpg



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