Calgary hood cleaning requirements

Phil,
An uphill battle is hardly the term...

I am still trying to get Stan registered correctly, I have sent him a couple of e-mails but have not heard back in the last week. (Ask Stan if he received an autoresponse e-mail from the BBS? (it might look as though it came from mike@evclear.com) but thats a whole other story.

In the mean time, If you e-mail me his comments I will get them posted ASAP.

Grant
 
Phil Ackland said:
Dear Doug
I gave that Vancouver WA notice a quick look and didn't see anything related to cleaning. It was all fire suppression and alarm. Did I miss something?

Attach 2 - DRAFT - Admin Rule 9.01 - Reqts for Fire Protection Contractor Endorsements.doc

Look at the top of the 2nd page. I guess Rusty didn't play nice, no hood cleaning in Vancouver, WA for you Josh!
 
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Here's a suggestion. Keep the branding to your own marketing.

A company, or cleaner should be trained according to the local standard, which in most cases is the NFPA. IKECA, PWNA, Phil Ackland, and yes the CHDCA all train and certify according to the NFPA. Forcing these brands on any cleaner should not be allowed, and is wrong. If a standard is to be enforced let it be a standard that will not profit from throwing its name on everything. Educate the AHJ to the NFPA standard and let them choose which brand meets the standard.

Phil has done wonders for this industry, and I have nothing but respect for what he has done. But what he is doing now is an attempt to force cleaning companies to carry his brand. If you are not willing to submit to Phil's agenda, you are pushed out and considered to be bad for the industry. It seems Phil's motivation has changed from educating the AHJ's to NFPA standard to that of personal gain and Phil Ackland branding. If it's not good for Phil, it's not good for the industry.
 
Dodsonish,

Despite Rusty's best efforts to advertise himself, it is probable that the Vancouver FD is not aware of CHDCA. I am sure if Rusty were to send them some information, it is possible he would be listed. However the question is moot unless he has or will have some of his students in the Vancouver area.

Fair or not, Phil is the recognized international proponent of some kind of standard in the trade of exhaust system cleaning. He has an extensive background in actually cleaning hoods. he has given more classes and trained more people than anyone else. The books has he published are the only ones I know about. He is a recognized expert witness, he is experienced is fire investigation concerning exhaust systems. Most important, he has the credibility to accomplish the task of raising the bar. And of course, it is a business.

I do not agree w/you when you state "local codes". One of the problems w/fire suppression is that most often the "local code" is the same as "no code".

Phil, did you see the part of the post that allows comments to be sent to David.Smith@ci.vancouver.wa.us until Dec 30, 2005?

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment co of Eastern Oregon, Inc
 
My question is, why are there so many certifications? If a company is certified by a group unknown to the AHJ they should make themselves known. This issue of certification is hovering on the silly. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but if my company is acceptable to the AHJ by way of their say so - Am I certified? If so why then are the different organizations, IKECA, PWNA, Etc, involved? AHJ's surely have their own sets of requirements. We should just cut out the middlemen and go to the source to eliminate all the confusion of whether Phil Ackland, PWNA, IKECA, Rusty, or whatever is the correct group to certify. Phil has done wonders by making certification an issue and yet not all companies are certified, most are waiting for the smoke to settle before leaping into the fire. Any comments? Answers? New Business? I vote the meeting be adjourned? Will somebody second that?
 
There are CHDCA members in Canada, but I'm not sure what areas.

If it were up to Phil we all would be required to carry a Phil Ackland checkmark. If you are comfortable with that then fine, but I am not.

I am 100% for certification, but the branding needs to be left out of the black and white.
 
Calgary's initiative

I have been reading the comments on this subject and I must say both sides have a strong argument.

This is part of what I am doing

In Alberta a new fire code will be introduced in the spring of 2006. Don't be mislead the Alberta Fire Code is the National Fire Code with specific upgrades designed specifically for our jurisdiction. In this new code changes that have been made specifically for Kitchen Exhaust Cleaners. It states: Only Qualified persons shall perform maintenance on commercial cooking equipment exhaust and ventilation systems described in Article 2.6.1.9. ( see appendix A ) A-6.1.1.6.(3)

Appendix A A-6.1.1.6.(3) Persons are considered qualified to clean commercial cooking exhaust systems when they have completed recognized training in duct cleaning procedures.
It further states cleaners must be Qualified and Trained as per NFPA 96.

Alberta recognizes the training programs by four institutions that meet our standards.
IKECA, International Kitchen Equipment Cleaners Association.
PWNA, Pressure Washers of North America
ASTTBC Applied Science Technologists & Technicians of BC
And Phil Ackland Kitchen Exhaust Training.

Question Am I qualified if am acceptable to the AHJ in my area ?
My answer. If the AHJ has a course recognized by the industry and meets the NFPA 96 Standard then yes. Otherwise both you and the AHJ may have a liability issue if you ever have to go to court.

Please feel free to email me your questions I will have someone post them for me until I can gain access to the site We are trying !!!

Stan Sauvé
Safety Codes Officer
Fire Discipline
Fire Prevention Bureau
Calgary AB. Canada
T : 403 974 - 4822
F : 403 567-5098
C : 403 863 - 6875
stan.sauve@calgary.ca
 
Stan,
It is of great help to see the AHJ's perspective on items that concern us exhaust duct cleaners. What are your thoughts on who certifies the certifiers? What qualifies a person or company to create their own criteria to establish whether their paid student meets the intention of the code (National or Alberta's). Can a government entity endorse a private company (cleaner or certifier)? What sort of liability problems can that create?


PS. Thank you for being patient while we got your account sorted out. Everything should be working for you now. If you have any other problems, please let me know.

Grant
 
Thanks also Stan for your responses.

Following up on Grants' questions; Who was it who asked for the certification in the first place? Was something out of wack or to use my new word, - was there a pandemic of restaurant burnings to the ground? I don't recall any.

Also, If an individual like Grant, for instance (not knowing whether or not) is not certified and Joe Schmoe, who just got fired at the tire store, decides that he wants to make the big money now and get into hoods, buys the equipment and gets himself certified, he is technically more qualified than Grant who may not be certified but has more knowledge and experience in this field than Joe Schmoe will ever have. Has any allowance been made for "grandfathering?"
 
Questions

Although you have valid questions I am not the one who can answer them. I am not part of any governing body making the rules or changes, I am a Local Fire Inspector representing the AHJ within the City of Calgary. Although I am a Saftey Codes Officer within the Province Of Alberta. Unlike the system used in the U.S. where inspectors are employed by the State and have jurisdiction within the State, we are limited to the municipality we work for.

Knowing that the new code will require all cleaners to be qualified, a governing body was formed in Alberta, made up of owners of cleaning companies who represented the cleaning community throughout the province. It is they who have set the standards to which all cleaners are to meet. This was done by setting a base line of competency that the AHJ could rely on. The governing body or the Alberta Fire Safety association or (AFSA) accepted the four companies I named before as those whose standards were acceptable.As for grandfathering. This was not going to happen, everone who is currently or those considering going into the business " TO MAKE THE BIG BUCKS " had to complete a recognized course and pass the exam.
 
Stan,

Please don't take this personally, but it sounds like the tail is wagging the dog in Alberta Province. You said,
a governing body was formed in Alberta, made up of owners of cleaning companies who represented the cleaning community throughout the province.
Sounds like THE BIG BOYS didn't like the competition and decided to fix some wagons. I recognize that it's the code that you enforce, but was it that bad before cerification came down and have things turned peachy-keen since. Down here in the lower 48, there are many well known examples of "certified" owner companies that leave a lot to be desired. These companies are not doing the job. What can you do in Alberta to those bad apples.
 
Lets keep this constructive, Stan is helping us to see the other side of the story, albiet, from Canada, but an AHJ nonetheless. I think as this discussion continues we will see some valid points made both for and against certification.
 
Questions

Lets see if I can answer some of your questions. The big push to have the Cleaners certified was a result of numerous fires in duct work in both the lower 48 and in Canada. The insurance companies were doing the major part of the pushing.
As for those who are "Certified" and not cleaning to the NFPA 96 Standards. WHEN I CATCH THEM I have developed a process that I follow, they could loose their City License, and loose their certification, from the AFSA. This would prevent them from working in Calgary and in the Province. In addition I could lay charges against them for non compliance with the Alberta Fire Code
(as is the case with one cleaner right now) and they will have to appear in court. Are we serious up here YOU BET !

Please remember I only have jurisdiction within the City of Calgary This is what I am doing.
 
CHDCA is able to assist those Canadians that seek alternatives

Dear Stan,

I'm glad to see that you are implementing some kind of standardization with kitchen grease exhaust cleaners.

I'm currently in Whistler, BC and was on Whistler Mountain yesterday admiring the creative way the grease exhaust system was installed in the restaurant at the top of the Gondola Express restaurant.

Nice grease exhaust fan, no hinges, sloped icy roof. Must only be cleaned during the summer, because one would quickly slip off and slide down the moutain.

I have spoken with Phil in the past and he used to include our organization along with others as a place to get properly trained, qualified and certified to clean kitchen grease exhaust systems. After all, he gathered input for his standards from all kinds of hood cleaners, created a consensus, and then branded these standards as "Phil Ackland", making sure to copyright and trademark protect them.

It was made clear during a meeting with Phil that his ego had gotten in the way of a good idea. He made it clear to me that the brand "Phil Ackland" was worth more money going after the inspectors and convincing them to use his brand and, that suing us "hood cleaners" were making him more money. That we were either to join him or he wouldn't mention us.

So he created the standards that you have now adopted initially as a generic standard that we could all support and promote, but then changed them to stroke his ego and make them "Phil Ackland" standards, after stating clearly that he wouldn't do that.

I strongly agreed with him that the idea of certification was very important to the industry, but that I couldn't support the "Phil Ackland" brand of certification as the industry standard. Phil made it clear that we were to pay him for the pleasure of promoting him. We made it clear, that as long as he only promotes himself, that we couldn't in good faith promote the brand "Phil Ackland" and that we would not participate.

There can't be one Canadian, or any one person, that controls the entire North American market. His ideas are great, but the personal branding has taken it too far. He thinks that hood cleaners shouldn't be able to clean hoods or get insurance unless they have the "Phil Ackland" branded certification.

I have spoken with numerous hood cleaners across the provinces of Canada and I tell you that not everyone agrees with the strong arm tactics employed by Mr. Phil to implement his standards as a branded intity.

We look forward to assisting any Canadian that must meet the Dec 31, 2005 deadline to become "Phil Ackland" certified by offering an alternative, truly, independent means to demonstrate their ability to clean a grease exhaust system thoroughly.

Thanks,

Russell Clark, President
Certified Hood & Duct Cleaners Association
 
Chdca

I support any organization who instructs individuals to clean the systems thoroughly. You and I both know that there cleaners who claim to be
"Certified and clean only the hoods I have pictures to prove it. This is the biggest thorn in the side for both your industry and the AHJ. You state they(cleaners) must demonstrate their ability to clean a grease exhaust system. What a noval idea ! Now you have certified cleaners who can show their ability.

Your Quote
"We look forward to assisting any Canadian that must meet the Dec 31, 2005 deadline to become "Phil Ackland" certified by offering an alternative, truly, independent means to demonstrate their ability to clean a grease exhaust system thoroughly."

I am not sure what you mean by saying Canadians must meet the Dec. 31 2005 deadline to become "Phil Ackland" certified.
I don't mean to be facetious but I haven't read they had to be "Phil Ackland certified" in the code. I do recall reading they must become qualified and certified acceptable to the AHJ as defined in the NFPA 96 Standards.

I would welcome an oportunity to sit in on one of your classes if possible.

Stan
 
I think this is to what he is refering.

Appendix A A-6.1.1.6.(3) Persons are considered qualified to clean commercial cooking exhaust systems when they have completed recognized training in duct cleaning procedures.
It further states cleaners must be Qualified and Trained as per NFPA 96.

Alberta recognizes the training programs by four institutions that meet our standards.
IKECA, International Kitchen Equipment Cleaners Association.
PWNA, Pressure Washers of North America
ASTTBC Applied Science Technologists & Technicians of BC
And Phil Ackland Kitchen Exhaust Training.



There are only 2 days of the training course that have a classroom type setting. And it's really only a couple of hours out of the day. The rest of the time is grease slinging and book cramming. I would recommend going the full course, it would allow you to see exactly how the cleaning process works. You might even learn something.;)
 
interpretation

Apparently there is some confusion in my statement......The Alberta Fire Code states a cleaner is to be qualified and certified to a standard acceptable to the AHJ. Full Stop.... It DOES NOT name any one institution as the recognized certifier.

The Alberta Fire Safety Assocation consisting of cleaning peers has accepted the certifications of the four companies I have mentioned to assist the AHJ in determing a base line as to an acceptable standard.

These are two separate identities and are not connected.
I hope this clears it up.
 
Hey Stan, thanks for coming to the board. All I can think about when I see your name is that song "Rico Suave". Any relation?

My question is how do you go about finding these hood cleaners that are not up to par. Do you actually check the ducts and fans as part of your inspections or does someone happen to mention that you should go check the exhaust systems at this or that restaurant?
 
Dear Stan,

Maybe not in Alberta, but Phil is working on all of the Provinces across your great country.

Ontario has set a Dec 31 deadline for implementation of Phil's certification.

I agree 100% that the NFPA 96 standard states that a person be "properly trained, qualified, and certified" it doesn't state that a person must be properly trained, qualified and "Phil Ackland" certified."

You are more than welcome to attend our course. Our course doesn't focus on sitting around and talking about hood cleaning, looking at pictures or videos. All of our training is done one on one, live in the field, at actual restaurants, real time training. Which translates, you will be up all day, and all night for about 5 days. We sch. periods of rest so our students don't fall over from sleep deprivation.

In order to implement the NFPA standard in your jurisdiction, you must enforce the entire code in total.

That is to require that someone must be properly trained, qualified and certified, also requires that you require hinge kits, flexible electrical wiring, 18" stacks, 16 guage carbon steel, straight vertical ductwork, access panels.

Basically, just to inforce "certification" without enforcing that the restaurants grease exhaust systems also must follow the NFPA 96 codes, is going to result in frustration.

The existing grease exhaust system has been designed, approved, installed, and inspected long before the lowly greaser comes along with the responsibility to clean a system that was never designed to be cleaned.

I think just as much focus on designing, installing, and approving a NFPA 96 grease exhaust system should take place.

Then have a system in place so that as systems are identified as "inaccessible" and have them fixed so that they are up to the standards is also extrememly important.

To place blaim on a hood cleaner for not being "certified" is the easy road to take.\

You as the AHJ, have the authority to accept any person's work as long as it meets the standards. You decide if the person is 'acceptable' to you.

I applaude you taking steps to require your hood cleaners step up to the plate and assure that they are doing what it takes to clean hoods in your district.

If I can be of assistance, feel free to email me or call me anytime.

Thanks,

Russell Clark
 
AHJ OPinion

It is good to see responses from you. Thank you

There seems to be a big hang up on the "certification issue" We can argue this all day, but at the end of the day I as the AHJ must follow my local code.
I agree completly that more attention should be placed on installation. I am working with the plans examiners on the NFPA 96 requirements. Please remember, this NEW addition to the code has brought more attention to the maintenance of the Commercial Kitchen Systems that ever before. As such as the expression is I.. "tread lightly and carry a big stick"

As for how do I find the the systems that require attention. I have asked both the Suppersion Service Companies and the Duct Cleaners to report to me any deficiencies or non compliant systems to me. I have made it clear to the Duct cleaners if they put their sticker on the system as being cleaned and I find that they have not met the NFPA standards I will hold them responsible. with a possibility of serious concequences. Yes I physically check complaints submitted by anyone, insurance inspectors, fire inspectors, health, etc. Have a great day

Stan Sauve
Fire Inspector
City of Calgary
 
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