Calgary hood cleaning requirements

Catch? I was serious! San Genero's in Culver City is right by his office and the food is good too! (I think it's one of your accounts)

Phil is highly regarded by, and his seminars are well received by FPO's. The certification protocol is free to AHJ's but I think he charges for the seminars. (Correct me if I am wrong Tammy)

The PAC program is well known and accepted and is the cream of the crop of all the other "certifications" available and IF certification ever becomes enforced, PAC will be the way to go.
 
I have no problem with Phil trying to make money. That's what we are all here for. I was trained using Phil Ackland manuals and built most of my business using his sales manual.

My problem is the attempt to force feed Phil Ackland to hood cleaners, while using the front of improving the industry. Phil's agenda is to require Phil Ackland certification before you can clean hoods. He wants this written in codes. If we all continue to ignore it, it could very well happen.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this part of what caused the split with IKECA?
 
The code specifies certification acceptable to the AHJ. It does not specify PAC only. Work with your AHJ and prove to them that the certification that you have should be acceptable to them (or for that matter work with your AHJ and prove to them you are good enough without the certification. Remember it is the AHJ that makes the final determination.
 
Dear Tammy,

We buy manuals in bulk. Use one per class. I'll be buying some more from you soon.

Just like a math teacher chooses from different texts to teach their class. They may not agree with everything in the math book, or even the sequence that the subjects are taught, but it's cheaper to purchase a pre-written manual than it is to write their own.

The Phil Ackland manual was a compliation of articles from industry experts at the time that the manual was assembled. IKECA has a free manual that has 100x more information than Phil's, but it's not in a format that can easily be used. Just look at the Thank You page in the front to get an idea of where all of the material originated from. Phil did an excellent job of compiliing the information in a easy to use format. Added nice pictures (a lot from Matt and this board) and cute cartoon characters and then copyrighted the material as HIS information and has proceeded to sell a lot of copies making money off of other people's information and expertise. How many royalty checks have been mailed to Matt, or the others who provided expert information for him to use in his manual?

I was at the meeting with Phil before he went public with his strategy of educating the fire marshals (which I am 100% for).

Phil made it clear at that time, that we would have to "pay" him to be mentioned at these "fire marshal seminars" that he would be giving away. Since we made it clear that we would never support in the fire code that you have to be "Phil Ackland Certified-- PAC" we were invited to head back to Nashville early.

A lot of Canadian hood cleaners have received letters from their local AHJ's (15 months ago) informing them that they have until Dec 31, 2005 to get certified, and oh yeah, the only person that was listed on the mandatory list of people to get certified from was Phil Ackland.

The only point is this. Which is more important:

That hood cleaners be properly trained, qualifed and certified to clean hoods or

That hood cleaners be properly trained, qualified and "Phil Ackland" certified to clean hoods.

This is the Point of Contention between Phil and I.

As far as lawsuits, Phil told me that he makes a lot more money being on the side as an expert witness suing hood cleaners than he does on the side defending hood cleaners. Seems us hood cleaners don't have a lot of money to hire great defense teams, whereas the insurance companies have a vested interest in making sure that other people pay the claims and almost unlimited budgets for lawyers and the people necessary to make sure they win against the hood cleaner.

He also has made it clear to me that a strategy that he has is that a hood cleaner won't be able to get insurance unless they are "Phil Ackland" certified as well.

I have no personal animosity towards Phil. I think he's a great guy. I just strongly disagree with his personal branding of a standard that was clearly introduced as a generic standard for all hood cleaners to follow. Phil told us that this was the case, but as the standard got perfected, he changed his mind and made sure that his "Phil Ackland" brand stayed right where it was.

We can all agree that a person should be properly trained, qualifed and ceritifed to be a better service to our customers. But somewhere along the line, it became clear that ultimately, by getting certified (or not getting certified) makes it easier to sue the hood cleaner, which requires an expert witness. $$ Cha-ching.

So with that being said, have a fantastic Christmas and a happy New Year's.

Thanks,

Russell Clark
 
When I had dinner with Phil (and Dave Saulque) about eight months ago, I posed questions regarding certification and I believe Phils intentions are genuine, propoer training and certification acceptable to the AHJ. Now I have not been to an AHJ Seminar put on by Phil, but I do know many FPO's and there is nothing they hate more than being "told" what to do or how to interpet the code. They gladly accept training but they think for themselves and try to administer to the intent of the code. If PAC training included a new car, or a washing machine, branded or not, they would not accept it.
 
It requires Phil Ackland Certified?

I still have yet to be informed of where it says you have to be Phil Ackland Certified. I would really like to know, it could be a useful marketing tool. I can't find a single code or document that says you have to be Phil Ackland Certified. Please forward these documents to me. It would be greatly appreciated.
 
Learn how to write a technical manual

Thank you Rusty, you did a good job of explaining how technical manuals are written. Information is collected, compiled and printed. Then the author receives money for creating the manual. Everyone knows the manual in its entirety did not spew from Phil's head, hence the "courtesy of" tags throughout the manual and the thank you page at the front. No technical manual is written entirely from one person. I'm sorry, but is this not obvious to everyone else?!?
 
An attempt to respond to everyone

Of course Phil is promoting his Fire Inspector courses to Fire Inspectors – it’s called marketing. There wouldn’t be any courses if people didn’t know about them.

We come across lots of proactive inspectors – usually as they exit the building after one of Phil’s courses where they actually get to see the condition of restaurants in their area. :D

JOSH -
Phil does not offer his courses for free. He offers his CERTIFICATION PROTOCOL for free to governing bodies WITHOUT THE PAC BRANDING (sorry for the caps, but I don’t think people saw that the first time I wrote it). The only reason it is copyrighted is to prevent every joe blow from using to create his own certification body/association. Because we all know how easy it is for people to do that.

Improving the industry is not a front. We are doing it one hood cleaner at a time. Phil’s agenda is not to get "Phil Ackland Certification required" written into the codes, just the certification requirement. I am not aware of ANY code that will require just one single certification body. NFPA and the Alberta Fire Code don’t even list options for certification – they just say you have to be certified. As to which certifications are acceptable to specific AHJs - that is up to the specific AHJs.

I’m curious as to how you think Phil Ackland is “forcing” his certification on hood cleaners? If you mean branding (like the branding for CHDCA you have in the signature of your every post), that is marketing – but I still don’t see that as “force-feeding”. You made a choice other than Phil Ackland Certification, so that means you were not force-fed? And IKECA's membership seems to be holding strong, so they too were not force-fed...

As for IKECA, they wanted to keep certification at the company level and Phil wanted to change certification to the Crew Leader level. Two completely different ways of doing it, so each party did their own.

INDIANA JONES –
I believe most AHJs are not informed enough to feel comfortable accepting a company on its word, and want a “certification” to guarantee some degree of competency and liability. At one point Phil suggested that all certification bodies amalgamate, using something from each – but there are just too many different ideas out there.

RUSTY –
You were asked to pay to be able to use your “BRANDING” at Phil’s seminars. It’s called SPONSORSHIP: an organization pays part of the costs involved in staging an event or course in return for advertising. You were paying for the pleasure of promoting yourself. You didn’t want to have to pay for that.
 
I remember it being made very clear that if you weren't Phil Ackland certified then you could not be a part of the seminars. I attended the meeting that Rusty refered to, representing the members of the CHDCA. Phil gave the ultimatum at the close of the first day's meeting, require CHDCA members to obtain Phil Ackland Certification, or leave. We decided it was not in the best interest of CHDCA members to submit to Phil Ackland certification, and forfeit their CHDCA certification. Especially since they were both based on the same standard.

At the start of the second day's meeting Rusty announced our decision and we were promptly asked to leave.

The results of this meeting proved to me that if you do not submit to Phil's agenda you can not work with him.
 
Being that some form of certifications is here to stay one way or the other. The question that I ask myself was, who has the best program for company and my employees? After having taken the programs from PWNA-IKECA and Ackland, it is my opinion that Phil Ackland has by far the best program hands down. The other two are not even close.

Myself and two of my manager have completed the program and if any criticism could be put on his program is that it tended to be very difficult and some of my managers just gave up on the first try.

Phil has put together a program that works without the airfare and hotel rooms. I am very pleased with his program and the results.

Phil joined us at the annual IKECA meeting and was well received and mended the bridge so to speak. For all the right reasons he has developed a solid in depth program that will show that the tested person knows the related material. Plus it provides a tool that can be referred to in the future. :)
 
Not every AHJ will adopt the Phil Akland way of doing things but you can bet the ones that do have any kind of education on the process probobly derived it from Phils stuff or someone who was educated through contact with someone who was educated with Mr Acklands literature or training.



Im considering attending one of Phils classes for instruction myself and I have been in the hood cleaning business for 15 years.
 
I am not sure what the cost is-but it is around $500 each. It is well worth it.:)
 
When you take a look at his program, I am not sure if you would be able to find a section that can be debated. This program has sections on Tool/NFPA/Safety along with ethics. This product is not something to debate as per “One Man Crew VS. Two plus”.

As an added feature it gives the manager a way to articulate problem regarding the system along with safety concerns. Example would be, fans at the roof edge and access doors on the bottom of a lateral section.
:)
 
Wow!
I’m sitting on the beach in Mexico, soaking up the rays before having to head back to the Great White North, and I get this message to check out this bbs (or is it just bs¿¿).
I just about spilled my cervesa as I read the comic opera. There is Mr. Clark, doing some sort of diatribe on my ego because the city of Vancouver, Washington (pop maybe 250,000) wants to use anybodies certification protocol for cleaners except his (and this somehow is my fault?).
Better yet there is my administrative assistant, Ms Tukhala, besting Mr. Clark in the field of logic (and wit).

One point I did note wearth mentioning is -- I’ve been on the NFPA 96 committee 16 years, provided uncounted proposals trying to improve the lot of exhaust cleaners and that of fire safety overall. Yet, it is so easy for all you “Johnny-come-lately’s” to criticize the efforts of those who have gone before you. What were you (or any of you who like to look down your nose at the efforts we have made) been doing for this field 16 years ago?

If any of you wonder why a trade of less than 1,000 companies has 3 marketing groups (AKA trade associations) this pettiness holds much of the answer. How or why should any of the other fields involved in fire prevention take you seriously?

Mr. Clark if you really have something to say to me, have the courage to say it to my face. Maybe share them with the rest of the NFPA 96 committee in Baltimore, rather than grandstanding your marketing group to this audience.

Final memo to Mr. Clark, you are fortunate Tammy was in a good mood.

Memo to Tammy, play nice, after all you’re dealing with males.

Me, I’m going back to the beach. Anyone got an opener?
 
Sixteen years ago I would have been sitting in my parent's livingroom, tapping away at the controller to my Nintendo. With no clue that when mom drove through the McD's and picked up some burgers and fries, there was a potential fire hazzard lurking just a few feet away.

The efforts and successes made by men such as Phil Ackland have moved this industry by leaps and bounds. As one of the "Johnny Come Lately's", I have nothing but respect for these accomplishments. But "lately" I've seen efforts being made much more for personal gain than for improving the industry.

AHJ's are being made aware of shortfalls in KEC. They will be looking for a standard to enforce, if they don't already have one in place....that was not being utilized. If the standard they choose to enforce would say you must be CHDCA certified to clean hoods, how fair would it be to other certs? What would the IKECA members have to say to that, or really what could they do, other than become certified by CHDCA or clean hoods illegaly.

This is where Phil's agenda takes us. The big picture is to require Phil Ackland certification. Whether he's been in this business for 16 years, or even if his course is the best option for your company, I shouldn't be required to carry the brand. The only requirement should be the brand must meet the enforced standard.
 
dodsonish said:
AHJ's are being made aware of shortfalls in KEC. They will be looking for a standard to enforce, if they don't already have one in place....that was not being utilized. If the standard they choose to enforce would say you must be CHDCA certified to clean hoods, how fair would it be to other certs? What would the IKECA members have to say to that, or really what could they do, other than become certified by CHDCA or clean hoods illegaly.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure where you've been, but this is exactly what is happening out there. There are certain places (restaurant chains, etc) that only allow IKECA certified cleaners, and there are other places that only allow PAC cleaners. But the CODES and STANDARDS do list multiple options (at least the options they feel are up to par). The CODES and STANDARDS do not list just one certification body, and they never will.

Unless, of course, everyone has a sudden change of heart, decides to play nice and all merge into one certification body. "Lets do it your way." "Oh no, I'd rather do it your way." "But your way is so much better than mine!"

Oh come on, a girl can dream! :p
 
Tammy Tuhkala said:
I'm not sure where you've been, but this is exactly what is happening out there. There are certain places (restaurant chains, etc) that only allow IKECA certified cleaners, and there are other places that only allow PAC cleaners. But the CODES and STANDARDS do list multiple options (at least the options they feel are up to par). The CODES and STANDARDS do not list just one certification body, and they never will.
Click to expand...

I have yet to encounter a problem with anyone accepting my certification, or requiring me to have a certain brand of certification. Most don't even ask about certification, unless it's been made aware to them by their insurance carrier.

The codes and standards listing any certification body should not be acceptable. It is our job as independent business people to make sure we protect our businesses and how we choose to operate them. Forcing any brand of any thing should not be allowed. Whether it's safety glasses or cleaner certification, leave the branding to your marketing and the codes generic.

If it is not Phil's plan to brand the codes, maybe he can inform us that it is not?
 
Comparing Exhaust Cleaning and Safety Glasses

Josh, I disagree. I think Codes and Standards SHOULD list certification bodies to set the benchmark. If they don't have a list, then any certification would be valid. A new company could start cleaning exhaust systems and get their buddy down the road to certify them (only requirement – bring beer!). And you think this is satisfactory? There is nothing stopping this from happening. This would send the industry back to the degraded state it was before all the improvements came along.

You want to choose how to operate your own business, but the AHJ wants to know that you operate it properly. Any random certification body out there may not be teaching you how to do it right. If a code has a list, they have gone to the trouble of finding certification bodies that meet a specific standard.

Hence the list. An AHJ can quickly see if you hold a certification that is on the list and know that you have the knowledge to meet that level of quality. You can still do a crappy job, that's what visual inspections are for. But you can no longer play dumb, “I didn’t know you had to clean the duct too!”

To compare exhaust cleaning to safety glasses: Safety glasses (according to OSHA) shall comply with ANSI. OSHA knows that anything with the ANSI certification has met the appropriate quality checks, has met the benchmark. Exhaust cleaning: A code/standard states you have to hold IKECA, PWNA, or PAC certification. That code/standard knows that anyone certified through those groups has met the appropriate quality checks, has met the benchmark.

I do not know the internal workings of Phil's mind (not sure if anyone really does). Best to wait for his response - and he's in Mexico right now. I do know that NFPA is not "branded" as you say. Neither is the Alberta Fire Code (its the Alberta Fire Safety Association that lists IKECA, PWNA, ASTT or PAC). Not sure of what code in Ontario is requiring Phil Ackland Certification (so far only Rusty knows).

Are you upset because new certification bodies won't be listed in these individual city codes (like Vancouver)? Or because CHDCA didn't make the cut on the first go round?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top