Certification Protocol Kitchen Exhaust Cleaners

Guess who is a NFPA 96 committee member?


Anthony J. Spata, of the McDonald's Corporation.
 
Bryan, I thought about your 25 % figure for hoods that meet code. the last couple of years, I have been involved in about 20 new exhaust systems. 11 of those do not meet all of the code requirements. One of those not meeting UFC had a complete kitchen remodel w/a new 30 foot canopy hood and another new kitchen with a 12 foot hood. Neither hood has provision for access to the ducts. This project had to be at least $225,000 in cost & still did not meet codes for exhaust hoods.

I thought about the condition of all of the hoods we clean. Your 25 % figure for meeting codes is very optimistic. Some of the exhaust systems I see have only one good point. When they catch fire, all of the evidence pointing to poor installation will be destroyed in the fire. The two most common violations I see are the lack of clearence and lack of liqued tight construction. McDonalds still used silicone sealer to seal joints.
 
Grant, don't forget Mr Phil Ackland as a committee member. at least we have one person on our side on NFPA 96

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc
 
Well lets look at the list:

David P. Demers, Chair Demers Associates Inc., MA [SE]
Phil Ackland, Phillip Ackland Holdings Limited, Canada [SE]
Bernard P. Besal, Besal Services, Inc., GA [IM]
Rep. International Kitchen Exhaust Cleaning Association
David R. Bouchard, Fire Consulting Associates Inc., RI [SE]
Lawrence J. Capalbo, Flame Gard, Inc., CA [M]
Laurence W. Caraway, Jr., Kitchen Klean Inc., NH [IM]
Lee C. DeVito, FIREPRO Inc., MA [SE]
Robert C. Duncan, Reedy Creek Improvement District, FL [E]
David L. Foster, Insurance Services Office, Inc., NY
Rod Getz, Getz Fire Equipment, IL [IM]
Rep. National Association of Fire Equipment Distributors Inc.
Charles H. Gibbons, Jr., Lampert, Lee & Associates, WI [SE]
Ted W. Giles, Giles Enterprises, Inc., AL [M]
Rep. Gas Appliance Manufacturers Association Inc.
Donald L. Griffes, NEVTEC, Limited, VT [M]
Edward J. Hard, Koorsen Protection Services, OH [IM]
Gary G. Hopson, AON Risk Services, MI
William Klingenmaier, Ansul Incorporated/Tyco, WI [M]
Rep. Fire Equipment Manufacturers Association
R. T. Leicht, Delaware Fire Marshal's Office, DE [E]
Rep. International Fire Marshals Association
Steven F. Levin, Royal & Sun Alliance, IL
Rep. American Insurance Services Group
Philip O. Morton, Gaylord Industries Inc., OR [M]
Michael A. O'Hara, The MountainStar Group, MN [M]
Irina K. Rashfal, Intertek Testing Services, N.A., Inc., GA [RT]
Daniel P. Restelli, Underwriters Laboratories Inc., IL [RT]
Harry Schildkraut, Cini-Little International, Inc., IL [SE]
Rep. Foodservice Consultants Society International
Christopher R. Schulz, Van-Packer Company, Inc., IL [M]
Emmanuel A. Sopeju, Underwriters' Laboratories of Canada, Canada [RT]
Anthony J. Spata, McDonald's Corporation, IL
Lawrence E. Stahl, Stahl Enterprises Inc., NC
Rep. National Restaurant Association
Laurie K. Szumla, Lane Fire & Safety, NY [IM]
James F. Valentine, Jr., James F. Valentine, Jr., Inc., NJ [SE]
Bruce A. Zimmerman, AVTEC Industries Inc., FL [M]
Alternates
Tammy Lynn Bitting, Van-Packer Company, Inc., IL [M]
(Alt. to C. R. Schulz)
C. Douglas Burnett, Giles Enterprises, Inc., AL [M]
(Alt. to T. W. Giles)
Craig C. Campbell, Harleysville Insurance Company, PA
(Alt. to S. F. Levin)
Leonard E. Griffes, NEVTEC Limited, VT [M]
(Alt. to D. L. Griffes)
Harry P. Jones, Underwriters Laboratories Inc., IL [RT]
(Alt. to D. P. Restelli)
Fred E. Kahn, Guardian Power Cleaning of Dallas, Inc., TX [IM]
(Alt. to B. P. Besal)
Richard Kukla, Robert Rippe & Associates, MN [SE]
(Alt. to H. Schildkraut)
Daryl Mirza, Gurnee, IL [SE]
(Alt. to P. Ackland)
James Shea, Kidde-Fenwal, MA [M]
(Alt. to W. Klingenmaier)
James D. Lake, NFPA Staff Liaison
 
The "loud mouth - blowing out of thin air"

I appreciate the interest that you guys have in all this. It is your livelihood.
there are so many issues that have been raised in this thread that I can not properly respond to them all.
You interest and effort is what this cleaning field needs.
I know it may sound corny but cleaning exhaust systems has put food on my table since 1966. That is a long time. I really do want to try to give something back. If by bringing awareness to the fire department about the need for proper construction/ installation can do that then great. If "forcing" exhaust cleaners to be more accountable then great. If education, regardless of who takes it, make somebody aware of the 'cut corners,' shoddy workmanship or negliegence in the systems and service. then great.
There is a long way to go to reach, what I think anyone who is knowledgable of all the problems in this "whole" kitchen exhaust system field, is aware of. But we do the little bit we can.
There are a lot of people on the NFPA 96 who are genuinely concerned about these improvements, there are others who are protecting their "rice bowl" that is the way it is. But it is the best we have.

To say that I created Standards to suit myself is unfair. I did make a mistake in putting in one about certification. But others saw that and corrected my ERROR. That is the check and balance the make the NFPA work. I realized (too late) my mistake and felt quite foolish. However, that will not change the need for some guidance in this area. And (somewhat wiser) I will continue to work for that improvement. In most cases, I have RE-acted to what the committee has come up with.

I stand behind my efforts. What have I done that wasn't for the good of honest exhaust cleaners trying to do the job right? If any one thinks they can do better I know that the NFPA will entertain their proposals. We (and I mean the WHOLE committee) await your comments.

By the way you have every right to comment on all the proposals reviewed to date. I encourage you to contact NFPA for a copy of the "Proposed Changes to the 2004" If you have any quesitons I would be glad to help you comment.
Phil Ackland
 
An example of either a well thought out system, or simply good luck. A new rest in my area, open 6 months. they called needing service yesterday, for an upcoming inspection. I went sight unseen with agreement to figure out price afterwards. One hood 15 feet, duct mostly straight, I could see through it, hinged fan. It was pretty dirty. The only problem was I could not run hoses from my truck to the kitchen without going over an immaculate wood flooring, about 60 feet of it.
I ended up cleaning the whole thing with a water hose connected to the sink routed through the duct, rather than go through the trouble of protecting the floor. Good chemical and hot water, it took 2 hours, job done to code no grease to be found. I got $200 for the job, a happy customer, and a great steak dinner. ( his idea)! couldn't we all use more of these!
 
Thanks Phil for the heads up on this web site; and thanks to the people responsible for creating this web site, they should be very proud.
 
Phil, I applaude your efforts for the betterment of the entire industry. I beleive that the vast majority of hood cleaners also realize that your input has improved the industry to where it is today.
 
Dear Phil,

I thank you for all that you have done and are doing for this industry.

What is your position on other companies offering certification outside of you and your 2 associations?

Is the NFPA only going to be recognize certifications if I attend your ISO 9000 Phil Ackland Certification of Certifier's course?

Is there going to be a standard that is set that one could obtain this certification without having to go through one of your companies?

Can a copy of the proposed changes (just those relating to kitchen exhaust cleaning) be published on this board for all kitchen exhaust cleaners to read and input?

Is there room on the NFPA 96 committee for additional members?

I appreciate your answers and I know that you would answer them if I called you on the phone, as we have done in the past, but I think that everyone would like to input as well.
 
org

I would like to point out for the record that although Phil Ackland was the founder of IKECA and Robert Hinderliter was the founder of PWNA both organizations operate without the direction of each of these individuals. This is not intended in any way to be disrespectfully; both of these gentlemen are well respected by me and by the industry.
 
Thanks for the clarification.

So you are telling me that Phil didn't write the certification exams for IKECA and PWNA?

And that he doesn't have anything to do with these organizations other than he helped create them?
 
Just a thought, why don't any of the graduates from Rusty's school write into this board to backup or contradict him. He seems like a likeable guy from his writing and he has some good ideas. His graduates should certainly back up his comments on certificates and training.

On the topic, P Ackland is one of the original members of IKECA and from what I heard wrote the original test for cleaners but when he left they changed the program. He also wrote the original PWNA test and they still use it according to what I hear. PWNA was started by Robert Hinderliter, "The Godfather of Power Washing."
 
Thanks Greese,

Do I know you? We're from the same town?

I've invited our students to this forum, but they don't have a dog in this fight and are busy building their businesses.

***************************************

Just yesterday I got an email from Josh in MO.

Posted on 4-17-2003 at 20:48

HAPPY EASTER

Happy Easter to all CHDCA members. Whether you celebrate with eggs and chocolate and imaginary bunnies or by thanking God for the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, I hope you all have a great weekend. This is the first Easter that I've had off in three years. Before, my work had required me to work most holidays. Thank you, Roger and Pat and Rusty and Anna, for this free time given to me by my business. It is really nice to be able to schedule days off at my choosing.

Josh

***************************************

Josh and his wife have already gotten over $46,000 worth of business since he completed his program Jan. 30, 2003.

***************************************

The only point I was trying to make was that IKECA, PWNA and Phil for all intense purposes are 1 in the same (not literally, and I appreciate the clarification Mike) and that CHDCA is the only truly independent organization.
 
NFPA offers a number of model codes.Jurisdictions can adopt, modify or ignore these codes. NFPA does not certify products, methodology schools, or classes. Certification of parts and labor is done by others. Among those involved in certifiacations are UL, CSA, IEE and other orginizastions. I have not seen Phil claim his work or course of study is accecpted/certified by NFPA. Phil is in business to make a profit, as are the rest of us. But Phil is donating much of his time and effort to raise the bar. This will benefit the rest of us by making the AHJ aware of the need for quaility service.

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc
 
Rusty:

While I am certainly not saying you're not being truthful, I have to wonder why, out of all the students you claim to have graduated from your school, none of them has come here and shared their experiences. Speaking for myself, if I had graduated from your school and truly beleived in what you were doing, I'd be here defending it. If you are making your students aware of this forum, why have none posted here? I can't believe that none of them have bothered to check this out, if for no other reason than for a place to learn further. If they have in fact come here and have not posted any type of defense of their certification, I have to wonder why that is.

Of course, if it were me running a school that got as much bad press as yours has here, this would be the last place I'd make my students aware of.

Just my thoughts.

BTW, speaking as one who is ignorant about much of the hood cleaning industry, what is the AHJ???
 
AHJ= Authority Having Jurisdiction

My students not posting on this forum doesn't mean that they aren't well trained, qualified, and certified to clean kitchen exhaust systems. It simply means that they haven't posted on this forum.

Our students/CHDCA members have their own bulletin board. They find that as a 1 man operation that they like to converse with others who have been trained as they have. I have told them about this board, but they are very busy individuals, and they would rather spend their time posting on the board that was designed specfically for them. They know each other and they talk to each other on a daily basis.

I'm not ashamed in any way by what has been posted on this forum, if I was I wouldn't have told them about this board. They are very much aware of it.

A truthful discussion of the facts is always a good thing.

When you compare what we do with anything that is being offered by the other organizations, we are way ahead of our competitors.

So any person that has been trained or certified by our organization is always welcome to read/comment at any time that they want.

These are grown men who can make their own decisions and I neither would nor would want to stop them from posting on this board. What they do is their own business.

I would have never even found this bulletin board if it wasn't for someone posting on another bulletin board and inviting me to this one.
 
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Oneness,
AHJ is the Authority having Jurisdiction, which defined by the National Fire Protection Association is:

"The organization, office, or individual responsible for approving equipment, materials, an installation or procedure."

So Fire, Health and Insurance inspectors.
 
It is very clear that you do not wish to have your students partake in this or any of the other bb.

We are all busy, not just your well trained people. Your condescending attitude towards other companies just boggles the mind. This bb is not intended to project your little world into a more National Role.

Your have taken your concept to the edge without any evidence and credibility, account service relationship and not to mention your lack of background. You have not been a member of any National Trade Org. like PWNA or IKECA. You have self ordained yourself and giving the reason "Well, who certified Phil?".

You are selling the Molly Maids of hood cleaning and that's great-and that what you are-Molly Hoods. Until your group open up and run with the big boys you will remain open to this open mike talk.

David
 
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Dear David,

We seem to butt heads a lot on these boards.

First take a deep breath, I'm not trying to be condescending. This is just polite discussion and I'm sure that if we were in person you would not be nearly as upset as your post implies. We're just two people on different sides of the fence.

2nd Did you pass your exam? Have you gotten your letter in the mail yet? Congratulations!

3rd Who certified IKECA to certify you? Even Phil doesn't use IKECA. He has started his own certification organization. I wonder why?

Congratulations on taking the test. I commend anyone who makes the choice to become certified.

The fact that IKECA certified themselves to certify you is my only point.

Even IKECA had to start somewhere. They started with the 1st member, Phil, and then they added one more member and then one more until they had 10, 20, 30, 100, 1000+ members.

My question to you is, Why can't we do that? We're up past 35 members and growing. I'm not trying to replace IKECA or even say that we are better, but I am trying to say that we have just as much right as they did to start out. Let's see who's still around in 11 years (amt. of time IKECA has been around) and then compare our membership numbers with that of today's IKECA rolls.

The reason that we didn't join IKECA is because we chose not too. Not because we weren't able to. Besides I'm sure IKECA wouldn't like the fact that we as a group started our own orgainization and cut them out of the loop.

The concept of certification is larger than you or I. It is a concept that's time has come. It is only a matter of time before it is the norm (required) to be certified, not the exception (not enforced).

Now whether you agree with our techniques or not, we are the only organization that actually verifies that our students can actually clean all accessible areas to bare metal. Did IKECA actually take you to a restaurant and watch you clean or did they just take your money and hand you a test and say we'll let you know in a few weeks how you did. (over simplication to make a point).

You say that because we didn't get IKECA's nod or PWNA's nod to start our own organization, that somehow we must not be valid.

Who do I go to to get this ability to certify others that they have learned how to clean hoods the way that we have taught them? Will IKECA certify me to certify others and cut them out of the loop? Will PWNA give me the same ability?

The truth is that IKECA and PWNA both gave themselves the ability to certify individuals of their groups. That is all we are doing.

We are the only company that actually sets someone up with a complete turn-key business including guaranteed clients once you complete our training. We are not competing with IKECA, PWNA or Phil for members. Our members find us and join with enthusiasm.

We have members operating successfully in 17 states and 2 countries. We are adding members on a regular basis and soon we will represent all 50 states.

So we can both agree that certification is important.
 
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