etch / stain concrete

K

keith

New member
I am going to be putting a quote together for a customer to clean / etch driveway with muratic acid and reseal / stain. The driveway is stained black currently and will be restained black.

Questions:
1. Will muratic acid runoff (after dilution from washing) damage grass or other surfaces? Correct dwell time for acid?

2. Customer wants an oil based concrete sealer / stain because that is what was used the first time, but I have only found water based. Does anybody know of an oil based?

3. Pricing?

Suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Keith Dyarmett
 
Keith I notice you claim to be an environmental consultant so I would assume you already know what muriatic acid can do to the enviroment, right?

Keith I am going to sound truly rude on one thing but your question number one, one word of advice:

READ THE INSTRUCTIONS VERY VERY WELL AND UNDERSTAND ALL OF IT BEFORE YOU EVEN OPEN THAT CONTAINER.

Sorry if I have to yell but if you have to ask us that question you have not done your homework on that acid. Please go to Home Depot or another store like that and read that label, all of it till you understand it.

Jon
 
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I have read the label and know what it can do, I just wanted some advice from persons who have more experience etching driveways. But yea I'll remember to read the labels JON.
 
Are you sure its a black stain,or maybe it is seal coated,if so there would be no need for acid,just was and reseal
Johny
 
Answer to first question. No. The acid is not going to kill the grass unless maybe you acidentally spilled a container on the lawn. Most common acid used is a 20 baume, meaning it's about 30% acid, the rest water. Even if you downstreamed the 30%, you are still diluting it even further. I think most people see the word "acid" and automatically recall seeing something on TV at one time where the stuff ate through solid steel in a matter of seconds. I saw a movie once that had 20 Ft. man eating space aliens, but I don't go into a panic when I hear the word alien mentioned.

This is not directed at you Kieth. I think you already know how to use the stuff. I just see it on the boards a lot where people seem to think the acid is going to start eating a hole through the concrete the second it is put on it and when its finished with the concrete it is going to start eating all the plants and grass. Who knows, after that it may go after the livestock.

Don't get it in your eyes (it burns like hell), don't inhale the fumes (it gets hard to breath after a while), don't drink it (it taste really bad not to mention you probably wouldnt be able to taste anything else for a while) and don't mix it with anything youre not sure it should be mixed with (sometimes things go boom). Just keep the majority of it on the driveway until you can rinse it. Dwell time? I generally try to rinse it all before I leave.

Second question. Same thing Johny said. I think all you probably need to do is wash it and re-seal.

Third question. Pricing. However many sq. ft. you can wash and seal in an hour x your hourly rate + materials. If the customer gives you any sh*t over the price, double it.

Les
 
Les,

I think you've taken the pendulum to the other extreme on Muriatic and other acids.
"Don't get it in your eyes (it burns like hell), don't inhale the fumes (it gets hard to breath after a while), don't drink it (it taste really bad not to mention you probably wouldn't be able to taste anything else for a while)". You should read some of the Safety sections on PW bulletin boards - someone posted a very interesting one regarding a perticular acid.

Muriatic acid = Hydrochloric acid. At 30% it's still very harmful to humans and animals and plant life. Some plant life is more resiliant and resistant than others. Pour a bit of Muriatic on some lettuce and let it sit for 20 minutes - see what happens.
"Please don't eat it!"

Follow manufacturers recommendation for application and safety. "Safety First and Make IT Last!" Pre-wet grass, do your work, and rinse, rinse, rinse.

You don't always even have to go to the store to get the information on these products. If you can type a message on this board you can certainly type in Muriatic acid on your search engine and within 1/2 hour you've got more info. than you care for. You may even learn a couple of other things you didn't expect to.

Believe me, sometimes you don't get professional advice on BB's (so always double check and know your source).

Regards,
 
Paul, You are very correct about the acid. The thing is, I doubt any of us would ever come across an application which involved pouring any strength of acid onto grass, plant life, ourselves or much less a piece of lettuce unless it was by pure accident as I mentioned in my post.

I believe it is the misinformed that are taking it to the other extreme. That may be a good thing. If you don't know what you are messing with you SHOULD be scared of it. One reason why I always stress, KNOW YOUR CHEMCIALS.

Try pouring gasoline or diesel fuel on the grass and see what happens. We use that everyday. How many of you wear safety goggles, gloves and respirators while refueling.

I'm sure your wife uses Clorox in the wash. does she wear these things as well. Probably not, but I wouldnt recommend drinking that stuff either. Chlorox mixed with ammonia can caused toxic fumes.

If some of you want to spend half the day pre-wetting the neighborhood, go for it.

Back to the original post. Kieth, downstream the acid on the driveway and you WON"T kill the grass.

Oh by the way, vinegar is an acid and I eat it on my lettuce all the time.

Les
 
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Les,

I think you missed my point altogether. There are more people reading this post than just you and I. Different experience levels.

If Muriatic acid can etch concrete what will it do to skin?
Downstream it? What % will it be when it hits the concrete.
What % do you need it to be to be affective? Aren't you worried about overspray by downstreaming? How long dwell time? I don't intend this to be argument, I just like to work with facts.

Yes, I agree know your chemicals. But, when you say we don't have time or it's not that bad, I think that it can give the false impression to someone with lesser knowledge and experience. Muriatic acid is the same as vinegar? Same class, but different affect. How do you treat Lye (sodium hydroxide)? They used to make soap from it, it's used in a lot of paint and stain strippers, how friendly or unsafe is it? It's a base like sugar. Will you eat lye the same as sugar, or baking soda?

Exercise some good judgement when comparing.
Also you give away your expertise level by the statements that you make. You have some good skills and expertise (based on some of your previous posts) but sometimes it's better not to say anything if you're not familiar with a particular subject.

Concrete Etching:
Muriatic acid is normally mixed 1:3 (3 parts water) for concrete etching. Dwell time between 2-10 minutes. Always test first and test with a weaker solution first then strengthen as necessary. You may need to go 1:2, etc. (Wear gloves and goggles when mixing.) Can also use phosphoric acid which is mixed 1:1 with water (always add acid to water, not vice versa).
Coverage is about 50-100 sq ft per mixed gallon (depending on pourousness of surface, etc.). Check PH level of rinse water (should be between 6 and 9) - if below 6, it needs to be neutralized.

There are a lot of places where you can get this reference information. Porter Paints is one I keep in my files along with 2-3 others.

www.porterpaints.com/products/techbulletins/tb14.pdf


Regards,
 
Ok Paul you win. I'm not going to argue my point any longer.

Please everyone, read all the directions, MSDS Sheets, search the internet and follow them to the exact. There are no short cuts. treat your chemcials like you are dealing with Plutonium. Wear full body protection.

I'm not trying to undermine the potential hazards of chemcials, but on the other hand, I would think most everyone here has some common sense. We are not dealing with nuclear waste. I doubt anyone here is using anything any stronger than homeowner Joe can buy himself without the slightest clue of what he is doing.

What I am trying to do is offer a few short cuts based on years of experience, not 30 minutes of reading a technical bulletin on the internet, but then again, when I wash dishes or clothes, I just pour some detergent in. Maybe I should be carefully measuring and YES, I am using my judgement when comparing the two. My comparison is that I am comfortable enough with washing clothes that I can do it that way. Sure the first time I may have read the directions. I am also comfortable enough with the chemcials I use that I no longer have to read the directions.

Les

Kieth, If you need to ask any questions you can send me an email.

Paul, if you want to discuss chemcials any further, I suggest you start a new thread under that topic. It may turn out to be a good thing.
 
Use lots of water to mitigate the impact of the acid as stated above.

Is this exposed aggregate or broom brush/ smooth concrete. If the former, then there is probably a acrylic based surface sealer on it now - which is solvent based. As stated above, wash and reseal. If the latter, may be either a penetrating or surface sealer and you need to find out which.
 
The surface is broom brushed concrete. The owner explained that it is in the neighborhoods covenant to stain all driveways black. The entire neighborhood and sidewalks were stained black. The stain did not appear to be an epoxy. I obtained the # of the builder and will attempt to find out what sealer he is using.

Thanks for all the replies everybody.
 
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