Question on Phil Ackland Certification

Should the company Rep have to take the same test as a Crew Leader

  • Yes

    Votes: 24 75.0%

  • No

    Votes: 6 18.8%

  • Modified

    Votes: 2 6.3%
  • Total voters
    32
P

Phil Ackland

KEC Expert
I would like your opinion on an issue with the Certification Protocol.
http://www.philackland.com/certification.html

If you have studied how the certification works; an individual from the company must act as the Company Representative. Now this individual does not have to be a qualified cleaner, but does have to sign off that any other individuals (Crew Leaders) in that company, have the necessary experience and are ready to take the Distance Education Course and test. In other words the Company Rep. is responsibile for the company not necessarily the cleaning work.

So the question is, should the Company Rep have to take the same test as the Crew Leader?
As his responsibilities may be different, why should he/she have to know the same things?
But on the other hand, they are the Company Rep, and should know what the Crew Leader should know.
What do you think?
Same test or a modified one?
 
Oops, I voted before thinking this through. Take my modified and turn it into a yes. They rep should know everything the cleaner knows, and then some.

The rep will be the one dealing with the customers, insurance companies, and AHJ's. If the rep doesn't know the process how can they explain or identify certain problems?

I don't think the rep can make the decision on whether or not a person is experienced enough for certification unless they understand the requirements of that persons job.
 
I think that a company rep should take the same test. You usually would want your most qualified person to represent your company. Although the most qualified person is probably doing the cleaning and would have less time to represent the company.

Sounds like you could argue both, both ways.

What is the general perception of those that you have talked with so far about this?

Rusty

Get Certified in hood Cleaning
 
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To start with the crew leader at this time does not have to take a test. The salesman, brings account to the company and the company cleans. It is two jobs-would you ask your crew leader to sell and take a class so that he could sell filters and chemicals during the day. The skill level is different. The risk level with the salesman is limited to underbid or overbid.

Even if he does a after cleaning PR call his skill is comunication along with the skill to ID problem areas. Onces again the risk is low if any.

It would be my hope that this is not one of these changes to 96. I would think that we have other pressing issues
 
Hey Phil, you just stated

"In other words the Company Rep. is responsibile for the company not necessarily the cleaning work."

I believe a person should know exactly what a company does and how it is done before that person can become a representative of that company.

How would a company rep be able to sign off saying someone knows what they are doing, if they do not know what is involved in the process themselves?

How does a person under your certification protocol gain the necessary experience? Is it just clean x amount of systems? Or is it clean x amount of systems correctly?

The company rep should have to know if it is done right or not. Then the rep can be responsibile for a company and recommend someone for certification.

Now does a company have to pay someone else money to certify that person, or can a company tell that person they have done a great job and reward them by making them a foreman (crew leader) and paying them accordingly?



This is a very good question. Thanks for asking for everyones opinion.
 
Any company rep who 'signs off' on behalf of another should indeed have the hands-on experience to really judge. If this were not true we then would have pure tyros the likes of Rusty Ace making this decision - Heaven forbid! You asked!
Richard
 
How many of your salesman actually did this work before becoming a salesman? I don’t do a lot of sales anymore, I get by with a part time guy, or I do it myself. I did require him to tag along with a crew for a few weeks before he started selling. A salesman needs to have some experience to sell it.
Is your company rep solely your salesman or do you have a guy for quality control to check up on the crews, go around the next day and look at things. I don’t think the salesman necessarily needs to be certified but someone in charge should be. I would think the guy who writes the checks would want to be qualified but does that mean certified?
The guy in charge of quality control needs to be certified, Is that the crew leader or someone else? I think the answer may change from company to company.
It is different for different companies depending how and when they started, how they are set up. A new company is probably starting with few employees, the owner doing some of the work himself to start, so he would need to be certified, but think about this. A guy runs a company for 15 years, he is no longer on the road doing the work, just does office stuff and sales, certification becomes required in his area, is there a need for him to get certified, or just his crew leaders. I think just his crew leaders. I guess my answer is yes err uhhuhh I mean no. I think I argued myself into a circle.
As soon as I think in one direction I find a reason to come back the other way
Ok my answer is the person in charge of quality control need to be certified it is up to each individual company to decide who that person is. Crew leader or someone else.
 
Does NFPA 96 state that the trainer must have any certain credentials?

With the present state of certification it would seem that anyone can/could certify anyone else!

Only when certification has some “Teeth” in it will everyone involved accept it.

Dave Olson
 
Dave I can give you the short answer on this one (others comments I am formulating a little more complex answer)
NFPA will never say that only so-and-so is qualified to certify. Never. NFPA does not endorse or "approve" any process, product or service. Who on (or in) NFPA would consider themselves qualified enough to say that anyone else could do this certifying?
I know there are those who may be telling you that they are going to be approved (or any other word you want to use). Frankly they are dreaming. I have talked with a number of members of the #96 committee. They are aware of what is going on in the exhaust cleaning field. And they are of the near unanimous opinion that if we do not have the maturity to work together, why would the greater fire safety community have any collective respect for what we are preaching.
It will be who ever can convince the AHJ that they have the qualifications to provide this certification who be recognized. Together (ALL of us) could have gotten this done a whole lot sooner than it is going to take now.
These are hard and sad realities.
 
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Just the other day I was called on a referral to have a look at a new restaurant in the California foothills. The owner always wanted to have his own restaurant, so he built one with five separate plans and a 200% cost overrun on the kitchen. The kitchen has been signed off by the AHJ'S-building and fire.

Wood fire unit has a 40 foot lateral run to a 90 and out the back of the kitchen with a 70 foot run
The mainline is a 24 foot canopy(48ft) with 4 ea lateral runs to the back at 65 feet ea.

All systems are round duct with 12X12 doors at the turns only.

They have spent over 3 million plus on this site and it is a fire ready to happen. It opens in two months. The AHJ's can't be liable for the fire, because they are public servants.

I stated my concerns in writing with my customer. The owner expressed his concerns with the AHJ's. But they cited that this was the way they wanted it, because of the view from the other buildings.

The AHJ"S need to get their act together. We see this day in and day out.

IKECA being that association has never stated that they have the only program for certification. They have said that they offer a complete program that meets the needs of 96. Furthermore the program is a on going focused program to meet the needs of the membership.

IKECA has several members on the NFPA Technical Committee. IKECA has no plans to take over the free world.

Certifacation is great but it is far from being the solve all for this industry. Only when the AHJ's are held to a basic standard and then held to it by a court-are we to see any light.
 
It all sounds extremely complex and convoluted to me. Not all greasers are certified and many are waiting for a definite sign from the heavens for the go ahead.

Since there are 1000's of Authorities Having Jurisdiction across this great land of ours, it sounds like, whoever makes the most compelling argument for their certification kit and kaboodle, (IKECA, PWNA, Phil Ackland, Rusty,and every guy who says: today my company is Certified) will win the hearts and minds of the AHJs. The NFPA it seems does not want to take sides nor should they.

Here's a frightening thought: what if the AHJs in every burg, hamlet and city decided to authorize who gets to clean the hoods in his/ her district. In order to clean hoods in each town the hood cleaner would have to go to the fire inspector with whatever they demanded while waving cash. Would that get expensive? Would they consider that a fund raiser? Could that happen?

Does anyone hear the rumblings of a bureaucracy like the automoble license bureau? It may be semantics, but shouldn't the Exhaust Cleaner be the Licensed rather than the Certified Hood Cleaner. Pest controllers, plumbers, etc. are licensed by the civil districts. If they screw up, they are fined, suspended or forced out of the business by the licensing agency.

Where is all of this heading? Does anyone know. We are power washers who clean the sticky, stinky, smelly grease in the restaurant exhaust systems AKA Da Hoods. Very few of us are getting filthy and RICH. Will becoming certified/licensed make us wealthy? Are we as a subgroup being overly harsh on ourselves? I bring that up because there are guys out here in powerwash land with three hundred dollar machines cleaning muck off the houses, roofs and decks of America and from what I gather - they are doing it with a whole lot less overhead and grief then the Exhaust Cleaners gathered here AND smiling all the way to the bank. Are we smiling or just smelling?

By the way, here's hoping 2004 is as great a year for you as you want it to be.
 
Perhaps another sad reality is that NFPA is being shut out by 48 states (49 depending on who the new Governator of California selects as State Fire Marshal) by the Uniform Fire Code that goes hand in hand with the Uniform Building Code.
I feel that NFPA 96 is a stronger code and that at this point the UFC is to vague, but California came very close to joining the vast majority of states and eliminating NFPA as a code source.
 
You have a birthday party and you bring this back! What did I miss!!
 
kmjt1021 said:
How many of your salesman actually did this work before becoming a salesman? I don’t do a lot of sales anymore, I get by with a part time guy, or I do it myself. I did require him to tag along with a crew for a few weeks before he started selling. A salesman needs to have some experience to sell it.
Is your company rep solely your salesman or do you have a guy for quality control to check up on the crews, go around the next day and look at things. I don’t think the salesman necessarily needs to be certified but someone in charge should be.
Click to expand...

Bryan speaks the truth and from good experience.
The "rep" should be certified the same as the crew leader. In fact the "rep" may need additional knowledge/ training beyond what a crew leader needs.
The "rep" should be qualified to sell the job and also do follow up after the work is done.

Sorry to have to admit it but I am a "rep" or maybe a "salesman".
But I was a crew leader for years prior to this and coud not do this job successfully without having the real experience first.
I personally would never hire a "sales rep" for this line of work. But there are companies that do.
I have met "sales reps" from other companies on job walks. You can tell them apart immediately as they pull up in a passenger car with no ladder, tools etc. They are usually dressed inappropreately in slacks/ dress shirts and often do not even have a camera or flashlight. I have seen them do little more than count the # of hoods, # of fans without any real concern for what is inside these systems, how well the systems have been maintianed in the past and what needs to be done now or in the future to ensure the systems are clean. They look at me like I am crazy when I disappear into the dropped ceiling to inspect the lateral ducts that they would have missed if I had not removed some ceiling tiles. Often times they do not even want pull filters and look in the plenum.
Sometimes these guys even wait at the bottom of the roof ladder saying "I don't need to go up there just tell me how many fans". :eek:

It seems to me that the company rep is speaking for the company. Thus he is responsible for ensuring that the service promised is adequate (for the client's needs) and is delivered as promised.
 
To impact this industry you must examine the credentials of the AHJ’s. They are the ones that allow some of these systems to be built. To say that a problem can be solved by making the salesman carry a certification-show me the evidence of a wide problem.

Certification is now an industry and a tool to make money, that is the bottom line. Having a salesman with a document does not tell the AHJ not to sign off on an unsafe system. AHJ’s are the issue or they should be.
 
David I agree with you. The problem is not the hood cleaner trying his best to clean an uncleanable system, it's the AHJ, engineer, code inspector that allowed it to be built and certified for use in the first place.

We're like the car wash that is getting blamed for the dirty SUV that ran over somebody and killed them (closest to CA liberalism that I can think up).

The ductwork is designed to be a temporary chimney in case of a fire. If this temporary chimney can't withstand a fire, then what good is it. It should be ripped out and replaced, not cleaned.

That's the bottom line.
 
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