7 story run
- Thread starter LEW
- Start date
David Saulque
Senior Moderator
Why can't you get to the vertical? Ed is right get a signed exit report and take pictures. I have never seen a system that I was unable to get to the vertical. Working with the system is another thing.
You could work from the top down with a spinner. We service a five level with access doors working down a shaft.
Let us know what happens. Cut some doors and make some money.
David
You could work from the top down with a spinner. We service a five level with access doors working down a shaft.
Let us know what happens. Cut some doors and make some money.
David
Dave Olson
Workin North of 60
Hello Lee,
We have several 5 story systems that we do. A few of them also have horizontal running along the top floor before they drop. We use a spinner and drop it from the top. If the duct does not have access panels then either you or the customer needs to install them. We like panels every couple of floors for inspection but we run the spinner all of the way down from the top. We use plumbers tape so we can pull the spinner both ways.
You say that you cannot get to the duct! There is always a way. It may not be easy or cheap, but there is always a way. Remember if the system is pulling exhaust from cooking operations that allow grease to pass into the duct someone needs to clean it! That someone can be you just as well as anyone else.
Dave Olson
We have several 5 story systems that we do. A few of them also have horizontal running along the top floor before they drop. We use a spinner and drop it from the top. If the duct does not have access panels then either you or the customer needs to install them. We like panels every couple of floors for inspection but we run the spinner all of the way down from the top. We use plumbers tape so we can pull the spinner both ways.
You say that you cannot get to the duct! There is always a way. It may not be easy or cheap, but there is always a way. Remember if the system is pulling exhaust from cooking operations that allow grease to pass into the duct someone needs to clean it! That someone can be you just as well as anyone else.
Dave Olson
I am bidding on this for the cleaning co. I work for, the owner wants to do it but wont buy the right equipment to do the job.
I have been looking at doing some on my own and have had a good response of people wanting to have it done. Most restaurant owners here do not know of anyone local companies that cleans them.
I have been looking at doing some on my own and have had a good response of people wanting to have it done. Most restaurant owners here do not know of anyone local companies that cleans them.
David Saulque
Senior Moderator
Then you have access into the wall and the elevator. Then bid the job with doors in mind. Once the doors are in place you should not have a problem. Like Dave said you should have a hoz. run at the hood level.
Good luck
David
Good luck
David
kmjt1021
Member
I do alot of work in Washington and Baltimore, and I know the feeling, most ductwork runs in the elevator shafts, and access is very limited if at all, I have seen many places where gaining access would involve much expense and in some cases if it is possible it is only at the top and limited, on the few ocasions I have gotten access I was cleaning it for the first time ever in many many years.
What do you do when you open up a 12 story duct that has never been cleaned since it was installed 12, 15 yrs ago, your only access is at the top, you can't access at the bottom of the duct before the horizontal run, if you have water leaks, it will leak into Goverment offices, or in one case a jewelry store, where even if I got accees after hours I can't get into the duct without removing a large part of the ceiling first.
It is not that I don't want to do the work, it is that no one wants to pay for the work to be done. with no axaggeration if someone/agency started to require NFPA 96 to be complied with, 65 to 75% of restuarants in DC would have to be closed down. Last week I went to look a Mcdonalds in a shopping Mall in the northern Virginia area, three hoods 75 ft. of horizontal duct, old duct that was in use when the location was a Roy Rogers 15yrs never cleaned, Access can be installed in the ductwork in two places and then only on the bottom of the ductwork without removing AC/heating duct first, then the duct continues ouside under a parking garage to the fan that is mounted hanging from the ceiling, again the ductwork is sandwiched between two other
ducts, can only install access on the bottom. The fan does have an access in it, but then another duct is attached to the fan and continues horizontally 50ft to exhaust the air out from under the parking garage, not one access, the screen on the end of the duct was almost clogged shut, I climbed up and scraped it open because I felt sorry for the owner who told me that the store had been open for over two years and she can't get anyone to clean it, no one will touch it. She is squabling with corporate McDonalds for selling her this headache. I am trying to stay out of the middle, I did give her a letter stating the problems that she forwarded to whoever, but have gotton no response so far.
The one time I got Corporate and the building owner to split the cost of cleaning, we spent two nights running a duct spinner up and down a 12 story duct, installed access at the top in a fire wall and then in the grease duct, could only get access at the top and at the bottom, well anyway after that a new owner operator took over the store and told me I was crazy if I thought they where going to pay that much money to get the exhaust cleaned, he had someone who would do it for $250, I'm sure they clean hoods and fan only. I sent a certified letter to the owner operator, the property management co, and the building owner. Just to make sure I could in no way be held liable for any future problems.
Sorry for rambling on but I read in an earlier post that getting access to I think a 5 story duct should be no problem, sorry if that may simplifies what was actually posted, anymore I just go look at these places show them whats wrong give them a price that usually drops their eyes out of there sockets and move on, and this seems to be the norm for me when I get close the the city and in some cases outside of it.
What do you do when you open up a 12 story duct that has never been cleaned since it was installed 12, 15 yrs ago, your only access is at the top, you can't access at the bottom of the duct before the horizontal run, if you have water leaks, it will leak into Goverment offices, or in one case a jewelry store, where even if I got accees after hours I can't get into the duct without removing a large part of the ceiling first.
It is not that I don't want to do the work, it is that no one wants to pay for the work to be done. with no axaggeration if someone/agency started to require NFPA 96 to be complied with, 65 to 75% of restuarants in DC would have to be closed down. Last week I went to look a Mcdonalds in a shopping Mall in the northern Virginia area, three hoods 75 ft. of horizontal duct, old duct that was in use when the location was a Roy Rogers 15yrs never cleaned, Access can be installed in the ductwork in two places and then only on the bottom of the ductwork without removing AC/heating duct first, then the duct continues ouside under a parking garage to the fan that is mounted hanging from the ceiling, again the ductwork is sandwiched between two other
ducts, can only install access on the bottom. The fan does have an access in it, but then another duct is attached to the fan and continues horizontally 50ft to exhaust the air out from under the parking garage, not one access, the screen on the end of the duct was almost clogged shut, I climbed up and scraped it open because I felt sorry for the owner who told me that the store had been open for over two years and she can't get anyone to clean it, no one will touch it. She is squabling with corporate McDonalds for selling her this headache. I am trying to stay out of the middle, I did give her a letter stating the problems that she forwarded to whoever, but have gotton no response so far.
The one time I got Corporate and the building owner to split the cost of cleaning, we spent two nights running a duct spinner up and down a 12 story duct, installed access at the top in a fire wall and then in the grease duct, could only get access at the top and at the bottom, well anyway after that a new owner operator took over the store and told me I was crazy if I thought they where going to pay that much money to get the exhaust cleaned, he had someone who would do it for $250, I'm sure they clean hoods and fan only. I sent a certified letter to the owner operator, the property management co, and the building owner. Just to make sure I could in no way be held liable for any future problems.
Sorry for rambling on but I read in an earlier post that getting access to I think a 5 story duct should be no problem, sorry if that may simplifies what was actually posted, anymore I just go look at these places show them whats wrong give them a price that usually drops their eyes out of there sockets and move on, and this seems to be the norm for me when I get close the the city and in some cases outside of it.
Well Bryan,
I have been exactly there on more than several occasions. Duct you can access if you remove a sheet rock ceiling, duct so old and potentially leaky and dangerous that I would'nt go near it! As you mentioned, a leaky duct, could cause many many problems. Like our chemical hitting a junction box hidden in the ceiling or attached directly to the duct. I dont know about your degreaser, but mine, if given a little electricity, is a wonderful conductor. Largest sparks I have ever seen! In the older buildings we both apparently service, discretion is best. I have never, never, had a customer offer to pay for the damage greasy water leaking from a duct caused. Especially to some other business in the building. What a suprise huh! Not up to code......too bad for me. Perhaps I should have checked the duct first, by putting water into it?!?! Or maybe get ahold of the nonexistant blueprints that tell me absolutely nothing about the condition of the duct.
Your post is exactly the way it is for me but I haven't had the balls to mention it because of the " haven't seen a duct I couldn't clean" attitude here. Maybe its because those cleaners are working on newer buildings, or they don't do any ducts they can't access, but here in New England, the duct is often hidden in a sheet rock ceiling or vents into a chimney. Also if I could access it, the customer freaks out at the cost. So I clean what I can,without letting the work get dangerous, tell them the truth, get them to sign off and thats it.
Good post Bryan.
ED
I have been exactly there on more than several occasions. Duct you can access if you remove a sheet rock ceiling, duct so old and potentially leaky and dangerous that I would'nt go near it! As you mentioned, a leaky duct, could cause many many problems. Like our chemical hitting a junction box hidden in the ceiling or attached directly to the duct. I dont know about your degreaser, but mine, if given a little electricity, is a wonderful conductor. Largest sparks I have ever seen! In the older buildings we both apparently service, discretion is best. I have never, never, had a customer offer to pay for the damage greasy water leaking from a duct caused. Especially to some other business in the building. What a suprise huh! Not up to code......too bad for me. Perhaps I should have checked the duct first, by putting water into it?!?! Or maybe get ahold of the nonexistant blueprints that tell me absolutely nothing about the condition of the duct.
Your post is exactly the way it is for me but I haven't had the balls to mention it because of the " haven't seen a duct I couldn't clean" attitude here. Maybe its because those cleaners are working on newer buildings, or they don't do any ducts they can't access, but here in New England, the duct is often hidden in a sheet rock ceiling or vents into a chimney. Also if I could access it, the customer freaks out at the cost. So I clean what I can,without letting the work get dangerous, tell them the truth, get them to sign off and thats it.
Good post Bryan.
ED
David Saulque
Senior Moderator
This is not your problem, take a step back and look at this overall picture. Our customer look at us as if we can and should clean all system regardless from 11PM until 5AM. No this is there problem and your opportunity. I would propose a solution and that being a consultant like Dave Olson that would look at this location and report to the key people a solution. This solution would cost lets say $$$(for Dave) This would give your customer a non bias solution to the problem.
This puts you in a safe zone and add credibility to your situation. If they say no I would walk and give a copy of the proposal to the Fire Marshall.
We can't be the lone solution to a problem like this. Take some pictures and put them on this bb. I have interest in the hoz. section in the cell of the parking lot, and why doors can't be placed on the side of this section, along with the elevator shaft.
Good Luck
David
This puts you in a safe zone and add credibility to your situation. If they say no I would walk and give a copy of the proposal to the Fire Marshall.
We can't be the lone solution to a problem like this. Take some pictures and put them on this bb. I have interest in the hoz. section in the cell of the parking lot, and why doors can't be placed on the side of this section, along with the elevator shaft.
Good Luck
David
Dave Olson
Workin North of 60
I think that some may have misread my previous post.
We have had to cut open walls, have asbestos certified folks clear the area to install access panels. Line 100 foot hallway floors and walls to protect them from our work. Protect office equipment (computers etc.) because the grease duct goes over them.
What I said was "There is always a way, may not be easy or cheap but always a way!
This first time we cleaned a system a few years ago, I expect their total cost was well over $50,000. 100 feet of 18x56 inch horizontal duct asbestos wrapped going over several lanes of a bowling alley. Another 100 feet of horizontal leading to the bowling alley. Five story stack the size of a small elevator shaft also asbestos wrapped. Bottom access to the stack in the bowling alleys office. 30 feet of horizontal on the forth floor big enough that you can walk in going over meeting and sleepng rooms. Penthouse fan about 8 feet in diameter and duct exits building on a flat narrow roof with no guard rails. We ran about 700 feet of hose from our truck to access the stack and run our spinner. Most of this duct was old and had never cleaned before.
Oh yeah, ducts build to code also leak!
Dave Olson
We have had to cut open walls, have asbestos certified folks clear the area to install access panels. Line 100 foot hallway floors and walls to protect them from our work. Protect office equipment (computers etc.) because the grease duct goes over them.
What I said was "There is always a way, may not be easy or cheap but always a way!
This first time we cleaned a system a few years ago, I expect their total cost was well over $50,000. 100 feet of 18x56 inch horizontal duct asbestos wrapped going over several lanes of a bowling alley. Another 100 feet of horizontal leading to the bowling alley. Five story stack the size of a small elevator shaft also asbestos wrapped. Bottom access to the stack in the bowling alleys office. 30 feet of horizontal on the forth floor big enough that you can walk in going over meeting and sleepng rooms. Penthouse fan about 8 feet in diameter and duct exits building on a flat narrow roof with no guard rails. We ran about 700 feet of hose from our truck to access the stack and run our spinner. Most of this duct was old and had never cleaned before.
Oh yeah, ducts build to code also leak!
Dave Olson
Thanks everyone, for the information. I will let u know what happens.
Kmjt the owner of the cleaning company i work for want to do this one, but like i said he wont pay for equipment and he does not want to look at how to do things properly.
I do not do this work yet but i am working onstarting a business to do it, I just need to find out how much Insurance is going to cost me and where to get it. I hope to have my business going by March.
Kmjt the owner of the cleaning company i work for want to do this one, but like i said he wont pay for equipment and he does not want to look at how to do things properly.
I do not do this work yet but i am working onstarting a business to do it, I just need to find out how much Insurance is going to cost me and where to get it. I hope to have my business going by March.
kmjt1021
Member
Thanks Dave
That is what I wanted to here, I know that things are possible, I just haven't found anyone willing to go to that expense to rectify the problem. My point is that I have heard many, many times on this board and others this statement or some variation of it " Why can't you clean the duct, I have never heard of a duct that is not able to be cleaned".
Technically that statement is true but the reality of it just doesn't fit. The number you put out was $50,000, that sounds reasonable or even low for some of the things I have seen, if you go back and read those replies it may appear to someone new to the business asking a question that he may be doing something wrong, or missing something. To throw out the statement "I have never seen a duct that you can't clean" without qualifying what you mean causes many to raise an eyebrow. If what was said was I have never seen a duct that can't be cleaned if someone is willing to spend 50 grand to do it is actually more accurate I think. Not saying that is what you said, but that is something that I have read in the past.
Lew simply asked about a 7 story run that is inaccessible, and the first couple of post made it seem like that situation was impossible, granted later post did clarify that some what. Here is what Davids Response was when Lew mentioned that the duct was in the walls and elevator shaft.
David Saulque
Exhaust Cleaning Pro
Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Sacramento, Calif.
Posts: 52
Then you have access into the wall and the elevator. Then bid the job with doors in mind. Once the doors are in place you should not have a problem. Like Dave said you should have a hoz. run at the hood level.
Good luck
David
I just reacted to that statements that make this problem sound like an easy fix.
Sorry I didn't get any pictures of the duct in question on my last post, posting pictures here was the first thing I thought of when I saw it, but I had given my camera to my salesman to get pictures of some other work he is bidding on.
David access in the duct after the fan would be easy to install, but my point was mainly to illustrate the difficulty and expense in making the inside part of the duct accessible.
The lady simply asked me why Corporate McDonalds and the local inspectors would allow that to be built and sold to her? A question I had no answer for without saying what was really on my mind. " Which was most inspectors either don't care or no better when it comes to such things".
That is what I wanted to here, I know that things are possible, I just haven't found anyone willing to go to that expense to rectify the problem. My point is that I have heard many, many times on this board and others this statement or some variation of it " Why can't you clean the duct, I have never heard of a duct that is not able to be cleaned".
Technically that statement is true but the reality of it just doesn't fit. The number you put out was $50,000, that sounds reasonable or even low for some of the things I have seen, if you go back and read those replies it may appear to someone new to the business asking a question that he may be doing something wrong, or missing something. To throw out the statement "I have never seen a duct that you can't clean" without qualifying what you mean causes many to raise an eyebrow. If what was said was I have never seen a duct that can't be cleaned if someone is willing to spend 50 grand to do it is actually more accurate I think. Not saying that is what you said, but that is something that I have read in the past.
Lew simply asked about a 7 story run that is inaccessible, and the first couple of post made it seem like that situation was impossible, granted later post did clarify that some what. Here is what Davids Response was when Lew mentioned that the duct was in the walls and elevator shaft.
David Saulque
Exhaust Cleaning Pro
Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Sacramento, Calif.
Posts: 52
Then you have access into the wall and the elevator. Then bid the job with doors in mind. Once the doors are in place you should not have a problem. Like Dave said you should have a hoz. run at the hood level.
Good luck
David
I just reacted to that statements that make this problem sound like an easy fix.
Sorry I didn't get any pictures of the duct in question on my last post, posting pictures here was the first thing I thought of when I saw it, but I had given my camera to my salesman to get pictures of some other work he is bidding on.
David access in the duct after the fan would be easy to install, but my point was mainly to illustrate the difficulty and expense in making the inside part of the duct accessible.
The lady simply asked me why Corporate McDonalds and the local inspectors would allow that to be built and sold to her? A question I had no answer for without saying what was really on my mind. " Which was most inspectors either don't care or no better when it comes to such things".