Runoff doesn't leave property

tomtucson

tomtucson

New member
You clean a property. No runoff leaves the property. No discharge to a drywell or anything, no significant ponding. Think stripmall with large lot - watr just dries up.

Where does this stand? I'm looking for a practical answer as well as the 'technical' answer.

Thanks
 
There are many, many opinions but you will need to check with your local EPA office, stormwater department and city sanitary sewer department to know for sure and whatever they tell you, get a copy in writing to cya.
 
Christopher said:
There are many, many opinions but you will need to check with your local EPA office, stormwater department and city sanitary sewer department to know for sure and whatever they tell you, get a copy in writing to cya.
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His water never gets to the storm water...... and he would have to pick it up to get it to a sanitary sewer.
 
This is still confusing to me. The EPA website says:

Pressure Wash / Power Wash Discharges<!-- #EndEditable -->

Section 301 of the Clean Water Act (CWA) prohibits a point source discharge of pollutants into waters of the United States without an NPDES permit. To legally discharge wash water, a pressure wash operator must obtain an NPDES permit for each discharge location. Due to the fact that many pressure washer operators are mobile, it is not realistic to pre-determine discharge locations and obtain permits for each location. Additionally, most NPDES permitted process water discharges require treatment and analysis of the discharge, which may not be practical for many pressure washers.

<!-- END PAGE NAME --> <!-- BEGIN CONTENT AREA --> <!-- #BeginEditable "content" -->The most common method of compliance with the CWA is to prevent process wastewater discharges to waters of the United States. If your discharge does not reach waters of the United States, then there are no requirements under the CWA. Examples of compliance without a discharge are vacuuming up the process wastewater or berming the process water and allowing it to evaporate. An additional method of compliance is to discharge the water to an NPDES permitted sanitary sewer system (the municipality may have additional pretreatment requirements before accepting your discharge).

The most common form of non-compliance is to discharge the process water into a storm sewer system or into a city street that drains to a storm water inlet. Most storm drainage systems in Region 6 discharge directly to waters of the United States without treatment, which means anything that discharges into a storm drain is the same as putting it directly into the waterbody receiving the storm drain.

Vehicle Washing

Washing vehicles is an example of a process water discharge of pollutants requiring an NPDES permit if it reaches waters of the United States. EPA recommends that companies or individuals take their vehicles to car washes*. If a car wash is not available, NPDES permit requirements may be avoided and impacts on waters of the United States minimized if vehicles are washed in a vegetated or grassy area where the wash water will be absorbed into the ground instead of allowing it to run into the street and then into a storm drain. There may be additional requirements if chemicals (detergents, waxes, etc.) are improperly used or if the absorbed water will reach an underground water body.​


Source: http://www.epa.gov/earth1r6/6en/w/pw.htm

We all know where the law is going or has gone. But are we talking about the Feds or local regs? We have a recovery system but it would be nice to know if we have to use it all the time. Looks like if it evaporates it's OK? Help us out here Ron you know more about this than anyone else I've talked to.
 
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evaporates where.......If it runs into parking lot and the water evaporates but leaves the oil and debris ...and it rains....where does it go then? storm drain...
 
Not counting soap, the oil and debris left is the same oil and debris that was allready there and becoming part of the 'rain' entering the storm drain anyway. If not using soap, couldn't a city 'classify' your water as rainwater?
 
There will come a time when properties with oil and debris will be told to clean it up or face fines because its going down the storm sewer......besides all your answers should be addressed by your city fathers on what they want......not what will think should be done
 
I guess I'm confusing this. My question was what is required by Federal law not what anyone's opinion is as far as right or wrong. I may have a warped view growing up in a farm community. They spray millions of tons of fertilizers and herbicides that make SH look mild on millions of acres of farm ground every year. Virtually all of the runoff goes directly into rivers, streams and eventually into the aquifer. We are talking millions of acres not a few thousand square feet.

So I have a hard time imagining foot traffic oil from a sidewalk being allowed to evaporate in a parking lot is all that harmful. This is the same foot traffic oil that is rained on in the parking lot and goes right in the storm drains from the parking lot. I'm guessing 95% of foot traffic dirt is from the asphalt parking lots. I'm talking hot water and no chems required. Fleets with degreasers and alum brighteners are a different story.

So it looks like the state and locals are the ones requiring recovery over and above the what the feds require. I'm sure in the SW states where water supply is more critical it has become more of a concern sooner. That said I'm glad I've been able to learn about it here and address it before I get in trouble.

And yes I've asked a couple of the clean water departments about it and they said as long as no chemicals are being used no problem. I'm sure that will change.
 
I was told personal by the EPA is that if you dislodge any particles from the surface you are cleaning, then you are responsible for the disruption of those particles and therefore must pick up the particles and dispose of them properly.

When you use a pressure washer, you remove more substance than an Act of God , meaning rain water.

If you disturb the substance for the purpose to " clean the area ", then you are responsible for " Cradle to Grave".


Here is an extreme example:


Moving 10 gallons of oil spilled on the sidewalk. You pressure washed the oil slick off the cement to the asphalt parking lot/ or the planter box, still makes you responsible. You do not have to "Pick it Up" to be responsible. Did the substance leave the property? NO. But you are getting paid to remove the oily debris and clean the area in question so others do not slip. YES. That makes you responsible. You moved it, you cleaned it, you got paid, you are responsible along with the owner. Thats what we do. By "Sweeping it under the Rug" YOU ARE STILL RESPONSIBLE. Whether you get caught is another story.

In the City of Concord CA. You cannot pressure wash anything unless you filter every drop Period.

Look it, sure some of us do not want to intrepid the laws that run off needs to be filtered providing that it dose not leave the property, AND IN SOME CITIES AND STATES this is true. However, the day is coming, and it will be sooner than later for some of us, that vacuuming and filtering will be mandatory for pressure washing.

Look it, the manufactures outlook is the writing on the wall. You are seeing more and more filtration products. More Vacuums with Surface Attachments. No company in their right mind would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for research and development if this was not true.

N. California is one of the states that requires, In more cities than not, filtering for more pressure washering situations. From paint removal on a home, cleaning a substance off the cement to Garage Cleaning.

Look it, it is not that much more work to have a vacuum boom and filter the water. IT'S NOT THAT COMPLICATED. Sure, you will not be able to do a wham bam thank you mam washing. Prices will go up, but this will weed out the wanna bees who cuts all of us, at one time or another, out of a fair profit and work. The time of spending 20 minutes on a job-site for $75 will be a thing of the past.

In the long run, this will regulate the industry just like the HVAC and anybody else you achieves a State Contractors LIC. Not just anybody can go and get a LIC in those type of fields without first learning either by proper schooling or years of apprentice and being tested about the laws and getting the proper equipment.

I welcome that day so that I don't get these fly by night companies who just got off the boat last night and start cleaning for 5 to 7 cents a foot.

There should be a professional standard of cost and profit, and we, as professional pressure washer contractors, should demand nothing less.
 
tomtucson said:
You clean a property. No runoff leaves the property. No discharge to a drywell or anything, no significant ponding. Think stripmall with large lot - watr just dries up.

Where does this stand? I'm looking for a practical answer as well as the 'technical' answer.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Global Warming :drag:
 
Here is the LOCAL law/guideline in Houston for waste water that has not reached the storm sewer and is allowed to evaporate, "the area needs to be swept up of all debris once it has dried." Rick, yes, each local authority will have laws over and above the EPA as does Houston, which must be abided by.
 
Evaporation is an accepted method for no recovery here as long as the detergents used are neutral in Ph and approved in their 'biodegradability". The biggest issues we have to deal with are free floating oils, debris, and no contact with surface waters.
 
Jim@Garagecleaning said:
I was told personal by the EPA is that if you dislodge any particles from the surface you are cleaning, then you are responsible for the disruption of those particles and therefore must pick up the particles and dispose of them properly.

When you use a pressure washer, you remove more substance than an Act of God , meaning rain water.

If you disturb the substance for the purpose to " clean the area ", then you are responsible for " Cradle to Grave".


Here is an extreme example:


Moving 10 gallons of oil spilled on the sidewalk. You pressure washed the oil slick off the cement to the asphalt parking lot/ or the planter box, still makes you responsible. You do not have to "Pick it Up" to be responsible. Did the substance leave the property? NO. But you are getting paid to remove the oily debris and clean the area in question so others do not slip. YES. That makes you responsible. You moved it, you cleaned it, you got paid, you are responsible along with the owner. Thats what we do. By "Sweeping it under the Rug" YOU ARE STILL RESPONSIBLE. Whether you get caught is another story.

In the City of Concord CA. You cannot pressure wash anything unless you filter every drop Period.

Look it, sure some of us do not want to intrepid the laws that run off needs to be filtered providing that it dose not leave the property, AND IN SOME CITIES AND STATES this is true. However, the day is coming, and it will be sooner than later for some of us, that vacuuming and filtering will be mandatory for pressure washing.

Look it, the manufactures outlook is the writing on the wall. You are seeing more and more filtration products. More Vacuums with Surface Attachments. No company in their right mind would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for research and development if this was not true.

N. California is one of the states that requires, In more cities than not, filtering for more pressure washering situations. From paint removal on a home, cleaning a substance off the cement to Garage Cleaning.

Look it, it is not that much more work to have a vacuum boom and filter the water. IT'S NOT THAT COMPLICATED. Sure, you will not be able to do a wham bam thank you mam washing. Prices will go up, but this will weed out the wanna bees who cuts all of us, at one time or another, out of a fair profit and work. The time of spending 20 minutes on a job-site for $75 will be a thing of the past.

In the long run, this will regulate the industry just like the HVAC and anybody else you achieves a State Contractors LIC. Not just anybody can go and get a LIC in those type of fields without first learning either by proper schooling or years of apprentice and being tested about the laws and getting the proper equipment.

I welcome that day so that I don't get these fly by night companies who just got off the boat last night and start cleaning for 5 to 7 cents a foot.

There should be a professional standard of cost and profit, and we, as professional pressure washer contractors, should demand nothing less.
Click to expand...


There is your "Clear Voice" for the industry.
 
Doug Rucker said:
Here is the LOCAL law/guideline in Houston for waste water that has not reached the storm sewer and is allowed to evaporate, "the area needs to be swept up of all debris once it has dried." Rick, yes, each local authority will have laws over and above the EPA as does Houston, which must be abided by.
Click to expand...

Doug, the sweeper trucks take care of that here, both in privately owned parking lots and the city streets.
 
This is a good thread. By using neutral & biodegradable detergents, you are then able to simply skim the other crap off the top and let the water evaporate!

I'm starting to understand it. You guys are just great people.

I think it's important we start to take steps in making a difference in our industry... I think I'm going to write a strongly worded letter to my city's authorities. lol
 
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