What would you do?

Tony Shelton

BS Detector, Esquire
I just finished re-reading this thread http://www.propowerwash.com/board/u...use-Banned-in-Houston/page2&highlight=brushes about Houston.

Many of you wonder how this kind of thing gets started.

Let's assume that your state has some good and sensible BMP's and you have been vocal about the fact that they are sensible and reasonable for contractors.

What would you think was going on here if your authorities in your state received the following questions from a powerwashing ORG through their representatives from outside your state?

1) What workshops and training have you had for Cosmetic Power/Pressure Washing Contract Cleaners?

2) On you (sp) NPDES permit it is noted that Oil/Grease has been on steady increase over the last few years. What do you contribute that too? Have you considered the effect of Contract Cleaners discharging into the Storm Water Gravity Flow BMP's as demonstrated on these videos? (INSERT YOUR COMPANY's YOUTUBE PAGE HERE)

3) Also, from one of the videos above it appears that the contractor is using cold water, and no chemicals but the videos (sp) shows foam being created from detergent that has already dried on the ground. One technique it (sp) to prespray the surface being cleaned 24 hours ahead to (sp) time with detergent so that it soaks in and dries. Is this considered pressure washing without detergent since no detergent is applied at the time of cleaning?

4) In you NPDES Permit it states "Waterbodies in Las Valley (sp) have been designated as impaired for selenium, TDS, iron, molybdenum, and PH". How does that effect the Cosmetic Power/Pressure Washing?

5) How does meeting the MEP Standard affect Cosmetic Power/Pressure Washing? Are you keeping track of advances in the technology such as being demonstrated at XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (edited)

I could go on. There are 34 questions.

IF you had specifically stated that the powerwashing BMP's in your jurisdiction are great as they stand, how would you feel if a power washing org came into your jurisdiction and started this kind of conversation with your authorities.

Beware, you are next.

I believe this is a criminal act. Contractors of Houston? Is this what made many of you go out of business? What about you guys in Atlanta?

Who is responsible for all these contractors going out of business and the loss of income to feed their families?
 

Tony Shelton

BS Detector, Esquire
Is this hypothetical or did it really happen?

I want to hear what you guys think about it whether it is hypothetical or not. I will reveal after discussion.

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Prhea1st

New member
Very disconcerting for sure. Why an outside organization gets involved has to be financial gain and control if the practice for sure.
 

"Red"

Graphic Designer
Ok. If I were in a position that something like this affected me and/or my business, I would be filing a law suit to get an injunction to stop them from messing around with what already exists in my state. I only do residential at the moment and don't have a hot water skid either, so it probably wouldn't effect me at all.

People on power trips as you've described need to be attacked head on. If the source doesn't have a brick and mortar location in my state, they can't bring this nonsense in without get a quick slap back to reality. I've seen enough cases where companies that have filed suits, that had no "rights" in the state, quickly shown the door. Tie them up in litigation and they may get more exposure than they bargained for and withdraw.

Just my 2¢.
 

Tony Shelton

BS Detector, Esquire
Ok. If I were in a position that something like this affected me and/or my business, I would be filing a law suit to get an injunction to stop them from messing around with what already exists in my state. I only do residential at the moment and don't have a hot water skid either, so it probably wouldn't effect me at all.

People on power trips as you've described need to be attacked head on. If the source doesn't have a brick and mortar location in my state, they can't bring this nonsense in without get a quick slap back to reality. I've seen enough cases where companies that have filed suits, that had no "rights" in the state, quickly shown the door. Tie them up in litigation and they may get more exposure than they bargained for and withdraw.

Just my 2¢.

Thanks Derrel. Would it make it OK to interfere like this if it were done in the name of, by the authority of and using the funds of a national power washing org such as the PWNA or the UAMCC?

If you were a member of an org doing something like this would you be alright with the fact that your dues paid for it?

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"Red"

Graphic Designer
Thanks Derrel. Would it make it OK to interfere like this if it were done in the name of, by the authority of and using the funds of a national power washing org such as the PWNA or the UAMCC?

If you were a member of an org doing something like this would you be alright with the fact that your dues paid for it?

I don't know how any of those sort of associations work, but if they were taking my money and then using it to stab me in the back, I would probably be busting their balls for a new election to have the leaders replaced. If that didn't work, a lawsuit would.

If noone has caught on yet, I'm all about suing people that harm (or attempt to harm) people doing their jobs.

On the other hand, if there really was an issue with how thing are currently being done, I don't see why this couldn't be handled internally (state wise). No need for an outsider to come in and mix things up just to get lucrative contracts and put the local guys out of business.
 

Tony Shelton

BS Detector, Esquire
Want more?

What if this was sent to your AHJ's?

"The whole purpose of cleaning a parking lot or garage is to try to capture as much of those pollutants as practicable, and treat the water in some way right? So why not have a discussion with one of the leaders in this field - you. Discharging to a landscaped area might be ok depending on the volume, but it could sterilizes the area to the point it's no longer a landscaped area. Discharging to a dry well is really a bad idea too!!! That is "Out of Sight-Out of Mind" ignorance.

Here is a video that we have made. This clearly show what kind of waste water we are talking about. as we speak, many in your area are cleaning drive thru's with caustic soda (sodiumhydroxide) in large amounts for a cleaning of the fast food drive thru's and as a cleaner in the parking garage and discharge into the POTW or the storm drains unchecked and unfiltered. As much as 10,000 gallons per day can be generated from a parking garage cleaning from one location alone."


Is this the way we want to be represented to our local authorities?

Is this what happened in Atlanta? or Houston? or Minneapolis?
 

Ron Musgraves

Exterior Restoration Specialist
Staff member
Want more?

What if this was sent to your AHJ's?

"The whole purpose of cleaning a parking lot or garage is to try to capture as much of those pollutants as practicable, and treat the water in some way right? So why not have a discussion with one of the leaders in this field - you. Discharging to a landscaped area might be ok depending on the volume, but it could sterilizes the area to the point it's no longer a landscaped area. Discharging to a dry well is really a bad idea too!!! That is "Out of Sight-Out of Mind" ignorance.

Here is a video that we have made. This clearly show what kind of waste water we are talking about. as we speak, many in your area are cleaning drive thru's with caustic soda (sodiumhydroxide) in large amounts for a cleaning of the fast food drive thru's and as a cleaner in the parking garage and discharge into the POTW or the storm drains unchecked and unfiltered. As much as 10,000 gallons per day can be generated from a parking garage cleaning from one location alone."


Is this the way we want to be represented to our local authorities?

Is this what happened in Atlanta? or Houston? or Minneapolis?

Keep going Tony


Text me for info on Milwaukee event. 480-522-5227
 

Tony Shelton

BS Detector, Esquire
Keep going Tony


Text me for info on Milwaukee event. 480-522-5227

Do the guys here really care about this Ron?

It seems like a lot of contractors want to think that no one is capable of this kind of betrayal of other professionals so they just dismiss it.

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Rance

Active member
Do the guys here really care about this Ron?

It seems like a lot of contractors want to think that no one is capable of this kind of betrayal of other professionals so they just dismiss it.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I don't who the contractors are that you've been talking to that "just dismiss it" but I am not one of them. We are and have been in contact many times with our local AHJ. We are off to a great start at forming a good relationship with these folks and are the ONLY contractor in the area to have had meetings with them. I still can't believe I was told by some to not even let my AHJ know we were in business. I think if a contractor is serious about building a solid successful business then they should be forming that good relationship with their local AHJ. Let them know who you are and let them know that you are on the side of being a "CLEANER" and not a polluter, that you clean up polluted area's. When and if some kind of BS comes down the pike, I know that the relationship I have formed with our local AHJ will have a positive affect on how I am treated by them. I am already ahead of the game in my area by letting my AHJ know who I am and what I do and there has been a positive trust factor established on both sides. That's all I have to say about this subject for now.
 

Doug Rucker

Roundtable Host 2009
Do the guys here really care about this Ron?

It seems like a lot of contractors want to think that no one is capable of this kind of betrayal of other professionals so they just dismiss it.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Yes to both Tony, The Guys here really do care, (SO PLEASE KEEP THE DIALOGUE COMING) and Yes it is dismissed UNTIL it happens to them.

Hypothetically or For Real, If this were to happen and it was done by persons within an org, then that org's PRESIDENT, should IMMEDIATELY dismiss the persons that are representing that ORG, issue a public statement that they strongly disagree with the actions of these individuals, and begin the process of reversing the damage caused by these individuals. If the Org chose not to take these corrective measures, then they along with the individuals should be sued. The hypothetical or For Real problem is these individuals would probably have the attitude that no one has the money or guts to stop them because hypothetically or for real they have been getting away with it for YEARS.

If this were done by representatives of an ORG, I wonder if the other leaders, or BOD, or Officers of the org could be held responsible and sued as well.
 

Scott Stone

New member
In as much as I have very strong suspicion that something similar has happened to me, I am thinking that there is little doubt that there are people trying to stifle competition through regulation. When it was tried in my area, it did not work well for them, because I was able to prove how specious, and inaccurate their claims were. I have proof of "someone" claiming to be me, and trying to get regulations in force that could be potentially damaging to my business. Fortunately, I was able to prove ALL of the claims as unfounded, and also to prove that, rather then be a point source polluter, I was reducing and controlling potential pollution.

It is really a sad sort of comedy what some people think will help the industry, how they portray themselves, and what proves to show that they are only small people, at least figuratively, trying to carve a niche in the world, at the expense of damaging an industry and the livelihood of tens of thousands of contractors, since they might be uneducated and believe what someone that pretends to represent the industry tells them. It kind of makes me wonder how successful their businesses really are.
 

Tony Shelton

BS Detector, Esquire
Before I go further with this I'd like to ask if there is any PWNA BOD who is willing to stand up from among the crowd and declare that should this type of thing happen, it is wrong. By now this thread has already been circulated among them.

If it hasn't gotten to you by now, you might want to consider what your relationship is with the board members who already know about this thread, but have not shared it with you.

Eric Clark?
John Nearon?
Charlie Arnold?
Daryl Mirza?
Paul Horsley?
Mark Palubiak?
Ty Eubanks?
Shaun Downham?
Dan Galvin?
Michael Hinderliter?

PWNA members.....does this type of conversation with AHJ's, in a state where you have NO MEMBERS represent your CLEAR VOICE?

If you agree with this kind of tactic please feel free to defend it here.

If you disagree with it, you might want to take this opportunity to say so.

What I have posted is just the tip of the iceburg. (Hypothetically......)
 

Doug Rucker

Roundtable Host 2009
Tony, it also could be that many don;t post in a thread like this because they are trying to be cautious and not bring attention to their area from people that may hypothetically do something like this. Don't let the lack of post's or comments here make you feel people don't care. THEY DO.
 

Christopher

Moderator
I think it really happened, especially in Houston, Georgia (not sure what city), and in parts of California from what I have read on the many forums throughout the years.

I think that if classified ads and radio ads were to be made asking if contractors were harassed, filmed, pictures taken of them when working, etc.... and proof of people, companies or orgs going into cities trying to promote bmp's or any other types of change that directly had a negative affect on them or put them out of business as a direct result and if the city made changes parallel with what these people, companies or an org were promoting, then I think that all those people should file a class action lawsuit against those that brought about the changes in an attempt to try to over-regulate the market, sell equipment or trying to stifle business.

Maybe a class action lawsuit would help spread some good light on what is happening and help it to be stopped so it does not further damage the industry.

There is a lot of proof out there, in PWI, the locals getting harassed by city officials, by rats (competitors taking pictures and video of other contractors working) and other situations to maybe justify a lawsuit to bring the nonsense to a stop finally. I am sure that many of the contractors in Houston that were illegally fined would want their money back, their citations permanently removed from public record and some financial compensation for being harassed so much while trying to feed their families when none of this should have ever happened.

I read about the lady there in Houston that started a lot of the nonsense but she stopped (no longer in business) but others went into Houston and kept it going and kept on fueling the machine that fined a lot of contractors illegally and wasted a lot of time for the city officials. Maybe the city should look into a lawsuit also for being misled into doing these things. I wonder if the City of Houston would be interested in suing people, companies and possibly an org misleading them into doing things to people that they can get sued for and might get sued for? That city is huge and has deep pockets.
 

Tony Shelton

BS Detector, Esquire
Just so you know I'm not bluffing, I'll go ahead and post another for you to chew on:

Let's suppose your local AHJ is not playing ball because they know the contractors in your area are not causing any pollution problems. What would a national org do then?

What if they wrote the following letter to the Federal EPA to complain that they are not being listened to by your local AHJ:


Mr. XXXXXXXXXX,

Just keeping you in the loop.

Out of all these inspectors listed below, the authorities of Las Vegas are unable or unwilling to respond to these questions. This is the third attempt from Mr XXXXX, XXXX XXX XXXXX Committee who asked for them to attend a National Event for the contractors to get answers to these and other questions that they may have about complying with MS4 runoff.

If we as contractors cannot ask questions to the local AHJ/POTW on how to comply with the CWA and discharge requirements to their system, then how can we, as contractors expect to follow them?

We are asking for help in this matter.

I have also asked XXXXXXX to meet with me in Las Vegas next week; I have decided to flow down at my own expense to visit with him as per my conversation with Senator Boxers office. Hopefully we can resolve these issues. I also would like to discuss these questions concerning mobile washers and the issues of illicit discharge into landscape areas or MS4 drains for the City of Las Vegas and Nationwide.

As I have said before, the City of Las Vegas and the surround (sp) districts gave us a very high interest and wiliness (sp) to participate until recently and only after XXXXX got involved months later and only after a contractor doing business with the city met with their office asking them not to attend the event, an event about storm water runoff and filtration units for the mobile contractor.

Here is a video of what we are talking about. We very much would like the City of Las Vegas to uphold their NPDES Permit NV0021911, as describe (sp) for the PUblic Outreach and Education Requirement for Las Vegas Valley Jurisdictions which they agreed to on Feb 9, 2010. By refusing to meet with us to address these issues, one could interpreted (sp) this as lack of cooperation as possibly being in violation of their permit which was issued by Region 9 of the EPA.

In my 25 years of working with my local and state AHJ, I have never seen so much resistance in helping the public gain a better understanding of discharge procedures.

(Video inserted here)



To translate these ramblings, this person is frustrated that local AHJ's will not attend some hypothetical event. They declined stating that attending such an event might be construed as endorsing products. So this person wrote to this letter to he regional Federal EPA office to complain that their pleas for more attention to the actions of contractors (like you) were being ignored by the local guys even going so far as to use a fake conversation with a Senator's office to try to make it sound more serious of a threat.

Is this your clear voice?
 

Ron Musgraves

Exterior Restoration Specialist
Staff member
Before I go further with this I'd like to ask if there is any PWNA BOD who is willing to stand up from among the crowd and declare that should this type of thing happen, it is wrong. By now this thread has already been circulated among them.

If it hasn't gotten to you by now, you might want to consider what your relationship is with the board members who already know about this thread, but have not shared it with you.

Eric Clark?
John Nearon?
Charlie Arnold?
Daryl Mirza?
Paul Horsley?
Mark Palubiak?
Ty Eubanks?
Shaun Downham?
Dan Galvin?
Michael Hinderliter?

PWNA members.....does this type of conversation with AHJ's, in a state where you have NO MEMBERS represent your CLEAR VOICE?

If you agree with this kind of tactic please feel free to defend it here.

If you disagree with it, you might want to take this opportunity to say so.

What I have posted is just the tip of the iceburg. (Hypothetically......)

I didn't send to all of them Tony, the ones that I didn't send it look here on a Daily basis. Don' t have John Ty or shaun numbers
 

Tony Shelton

BS Detector, Esquire
I think it really happened, especially in Houston, Georgia (not sure what city), and in parts of California from what I have read on the many forums throughout the years.

I think that if classified ads and radio ads were to be made asking if contractors were harassed, filmed, pictures taken of them when working, etc.... and proof of people, companies or orgs going into cities trying to promote bmp's or any other types of change that directly had a negative affect on them or put them out of business as a direct result and if the city made changes parallel with what these people, companies or an org were promoting, then I think that all those people should file a class action lawsuit against those that brought about the changes in an attempt to try to over-regulate the market, sell equipment or trying to stifle business.

Maybe a class action lawsuit would help spread some good light on what is happening and help it to be stopped so it does not further damage the industry.

There is a lot of proof out there, in PWI, the locals getting harassed by city officials, by rats (competitors taking pictures and video of other contractors working) and other situations to maybe justify a lawsuit to bring the nonsense to a stop finally. I am sure that many of the contractors in Houston that were illegally fined would want their money back, their citations permanently removed from public record and some financial compensation for being harassed so much while trying to feed their families when none of this should have ever happened.

I read about the lady there in Houston that started a lot of the nonsense but she stopped (no longer in business) but others went into Houston and kept it going and kept on fueling the machine that fined a lot of contractors illegally and wasted a lot of time for the city officials. Maybe the city should look into a lawsuit also for being misled into doing these things. I wonder if the City of Houston would be interested in suing people, companies and possibly an org misleading them into doing things to people that they can get sued for and might get sued for? That city is huge and has deep pockets.

Bingo Chris. You hit the nail on the head.
 

Ron Musgraves

Exterior Restoration Specialist
Staff member
A MI city Apologized for Leading the community in the wrong direction in the early 2000. Thank goodness this was head off by smart contractors who knew the Laws not the propaganda and the people behind the Incorrect statements.

Keep in mind folks the PWNA BOD like most National Association are not in the loop. When was the last Enviro report written after a Conference?

Actually if all this enviro going on for the last 20 years where is any of this in Meetings or Minutes ?
 
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