some advice please

I will try to keep this as short concise as possible. I just don't know if I can sorry if it gets long.


In a previous post under (7 story run) I mentioned a McDonalds that was in a shopping mall that was using existing ductwork left over from a Roy Rogers. Approximately 75 ft of duct mostly inaccessible running horizontal through a hallway to a fan hanging under a parking garage, duct then continues from the fan another 50 ft. To the edge of the parking garage to get the air and grease out from under the garage.
Well anyway the owner of the store got in touch the company that did the conversion, that company then called me saying I had no right to say they shouldn't have built that exhaust system because most of it had existed before they ever got involved in it. Which is true, but what I actually told the storeowner was that this system should have never been installed here in the first place without some thought to how it would be cleaned. I only told her to get in touch with the company who did the conversion because I thought they would have the resources to help her.
I am going to meet with guy from the conversion company to try to figure out where to install access panels. He told me he wasn’t going to move anything and that some of the panels may have to go over lights and we would have to deal with it. The reality of this situation is no cleaning company will touch it as is, including me. To make it even close to meeting code some real reconfiguring of the existing ceiling layout, i.e. ac duct, electrical conduit, even water supply lines needs to be done.
My contention is that the conversion company should have raised these concerns before starting construction of this place. They install exhaust systems as a rule so they should be aware of what needs to be done, now it appears they are in a cover my ass kind of mood, and they intend to do only minimal spending to do so.
I do not know who is ultimately responsible for this, I believe that the company who did the conversion should shoulder a large chunk of it, but I guess that ultimately is not my decision. I am just the guy who now has to be in the middle of it. However this turns out, I don’t want to do it in a way that ruffles any feathers with corporate McDonalds. I only know that if they can’t make it accessible to the point where I feel comfortable cleaning it than I will not clean it, at which point it could start to get really ugly.
Any thoughts about handling this would be appreciated, I will try to get pictures when I go look at it and post them here.

P.S. Something else I heard while dealing with this situation is that ductwork that is installed from the fan out doesn't have to meet codes, which is significant here because the building owner installed 50ft of duct from the fan out well after the fact, and
none of what I have talked about even deals with that part.
What all this boils down to is no one is willing to take responsibility to make it right. to make it right means $$$$$$$$ and possibly lots of it. Just talking about it makes me want to run and hide, but I will stick with it until I see what they are willing to do then make my decision . again any thoughts

If you are going to work for the deep pocket, go for it! If not walk away!

My $.02

Dave Olson

I do not know if you are in Uniform Mechanical Code land or not. My copy of the 1994 UMC Section 509--Fans, Motors and Safety Devices
509.1 general. ........Motors and fans shall be accessable for servicing or maintence....
NFPA 96-2001 8.1.2.1 states inline fans are still allowed.
Personal opinion, for what it is worth, inline fans are a poor idea, not easily cleaned and usually do not move enough air.

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc

I would carry a copy of NFPA 96 to the meeting. Is this the location with doors on the bottom of the run?

David

cleaning

If you clean it charge per hour, try if you got the nerve. Give and inspection report . Try roto nozzle on a skateboard, if no one does it and you try and do a good job then you will be the only one doing these jobs that command big bucks to get done. But if it will scare you away , then just do the simple ones.

This is not an inline per say, or as I know an inline fan to be. This is a normal blower that has been fitted with a duct on the exhaust side to keep the grease off of the garage ceiling, the fan itself has access but I still need access to either side of it.
I have already been on site with my copy of NFPA 96, and they guy did some math, using the 12ft required in the code and came up with 6 accesses needed, the problem is I think he is only willing to put them where the are easy to install. I think that someone needs to redo things to make room and as of yet no one seems willing to go to that expense, I will see.
The scary thing is I show up with a copy of NFPA 96 and everybody looks at it like is the first time they have seen it. I haven’t involved any municipal officials yet, if I have to go that far I will, but that also will piss people off more than I already have. If I can't get done what is needed to make it cleanable and I refuse to do the work everyone is going to be pissed off anyway so I maybe I have nothing to loose. I have a strange feeling that the fire whoever or the health department will give me the same strange looks I got from everyone else.
The one difference between this place and many, many more in this area like it is every other cleaning company has refused to clean it, it had been my experience, that someone is usually willing to take the money mark it inaccessible and go on like nothing is wrong. Not sure why this place raised a red flag to everyone, I can show him or her 5 places within a 5 block radius of this place with the same problems, including restaurants in the same building.

First of all you turned a mole hill into a mountain.

Second, after doing this work for 15 years I have found that they seldom take cleaning into consideration when building the system.

Third, this is a good lesson for you. Make sure you know your capabilities. Dont run your mouth about how bad the system is set up until you know who to talk to, to make the fewest waves.

Some cleaning jobs are best left for the larger companies. This sounds like one you should walk away from. Lets say you go for it. You spend several days, cutting, cleaning, working your ass off. You find that even with most of your recommendations you cannot do the job to bare metal. (I have cut into duct at a BK and the grease was like asphalt) Couldnt remove it with dynamite. What do you tell them then? Sometimes the duct should just be replaced. But anyway, getting this ready for cleaning may not be your only problem. Say you spray into this old duct. It leaks, on to a light fixture. On to the managers car! Shorts out a junction box somewhere in the ceiling! OSHA shuts you down cause all your equipment doesnt have 3 prongs. Then the customer says you still didnt do the job he wanted he isnt gonna pay you! Of course you didnt get some money up front so you lose completely.

You know what, so what if they get pissed. You havent been burnt. You learned a lot and refer them to a larger company that will give you 10% for the lead. It keeps you somewhat in that customers good graces and there wont be any hard feelings.

Early on I decided to keep the jobs I do small. It is my niche. It doesnt mean that my business is small but the jobs are manageable and if I get stiffed, no big deal. I get the feeling that you stand a good chance of being really stiffed and getting a bad reputation from this one.



ED

I don't have a problem doing the work, if they get me adequate access I will get it clean. I have also done this for 15 yrs. I think I have a good idea when something is bad. I just simply took the lady by the hand and showed her what we are up against. she started all he waves.
The only reason I am involved in this situation is I am the guy who Corporate McDonalds recommends to all owner/ Operators who call them in need of a Hood cleaner in the Baltimore/ Dc area.
I gave this lady a bid a couple years ago. I told her then, It would need a tremendous amount of work. I gave her a really high price with no guarantees of how much I could do with it, and the stipulation she would have to sign a paper stating that she was aware of the current conditions and that I would not accept any liability. As I expected and hoped she would do she looked at me like I was crazy and said she would be in touch.
Fast forward 2 yrs, I get a call from My McDonalds contact, wanting me to take a look this place again to see if I can help this lady out, which is all I'm trying to do. No one else will touch it,
She asked me what she should do, and I suggested she call the company who did the conversion figuring the work that needed done is right up their alley. The problem comes from her insistance that she shold not have to pay for any of this work. She is being a huge pain for everybody and rightfully I guess.
No one is willing at this point to accept responsibility for the whole mess. Simply saying the duct was already here we just modified it for a McDonalds.
She has threatened lawsuits and is adamant that McDonalds should have not sold her this store in this condition. The problem arises in the decision to reuse the existing duct and not redoing the hallway in which the duct runs through, and I'm sure that was a financial decision.
here's a thought, what about inspectors, I know that at some point this all had to be inspected by someone. it seems to me they should shouder some of the blame. I know, I know.... it a complicated legel question, just something that always goes through my mind when I see this kind of stuff.
I would love to wash my hands of the whole thing, but I feel an obligation to McDonalds to stick it out. I just need to protect myself in doing so.
For the time being I am being as nice and helpful as I can. I have a feeling when I meet the guy to figure out where the panels are needed that will come to an end. He is already mad at me for getting him involved, and thinks I blamed it on him, which isn't what I did, at least not to anyone outside this BB. He has already stated to me that he wasn't going to move anything to install panels. I guess we'll see..

thanks for the thoughts guys, I will let you know what hapens, and try to get pictures. Sorry for the lenghty posts, it's just a complicated issue for me becaue at this point I can't just walk away from it.

sometimes your dammned if you do and dammned if you dont.
my motto is to do whatever is right and honest in any situation
regardless whether i am going to make money or lose money.
no one can take your integrity from you and shouldnt expect you to put innocent people in jeopordy over a small thing called money.

I think Przrat said it well. Once I saw a somewhat similar situation. The owner solved all the problems with one tiny match.
Richard

Thanks Matt - that was a bit uncalled for (but I still think it was funny!).
YJGLTB Richard

jschessler
call me 6026942680

hood

look , I know that mcdonalds is a nice account to have , but if you cant do it let corporate know but if you attempt to do it tell the lady you will get an estimate to her. Next thing ask the guy from the hood co. to give you and estimate to put access doors where you want, add your mark up and estimate cleaning by the foot and add up your fee by perhaps x3 and maybe a labor rate per hour. After you are done present offer to owner and see what she says. If she goes for it take 75% up front payment, and get your camera and take pictures as the work progresses, is great for a portfolio and protects you in court. If she doesn't go for it your position with corporate wont be satined and you will not be viewed as a bad apple. Remember is better to be know as helpfull steam cleaner than to look as one that looks for a way to get back at someone.............word spreads fast when that happens.

thanks
I have committed to nothing, except trying to help, I told her I would not give a price until we get it opened up, and see how bad it is. She at this point is adament that she should not have to pay for anything other than the cleaning, and I think she may be expect a price for a normal claning . Wait till she see's the bid for this, that will make her day. The guy putting in the access is doing so on his own dollar, that is why he is being so cheap about it.

I need a little guy about 2 feet tall, who doesn't mind getting dirty, if you know anyone let me know, the pay will be good.

Bryan,
We use a little guy 'bout that size. I'll advise when he tires of current assignment, but I kinda don't think you can pay as well as his bank night deposit drop duties.
Richard

Why not? we have banks here too. he can moonlight, I get a cut of course.