Calgary hood cleaning requirements

Your comparison to ANSI does not work in this case.

The American National Standards Institute (ANSI) is a private, non-profit organization (501(c)3) that administers and coordinates the U.S. voluntary standardization and conformity assessment system.

Does ANSI sell safety glasses? No.

Phil sells certification, for a profit. If Phil tested the cert schools to report to the AHJ's of which were acceptible it would be different.

Obviously you missed this earlier, I am upset that ANY certification body is listed. Not CHDCA, IKECA, PHIL, or any brand should be enforced by code. It is wrong and if it's not illegal it should be.

Not sure why the word branding is being brought into the picture. I have yet to see any case of “Branding” in any recommendation from NFPA. So why must some of us make it a hot issue. We are starting to create a problem issue where one does not exist.

dodsonish said:

Your comparison to ANSI does not work in this case.

Click to expand...

You're right. I should have used McDonalds instead.

So you think anyone should be able to certify exhaust cleaners to satisfy the requirement? That your buddy down the road can certify you, and that the AHJs should consider that a valid certification?

David, I’m sure Josh knows NFPA doesn’t say anything about which group to go to for certification. It’s the other guys, like little ol’ Vancouver, WA that he’s complaining about. And this mysterious Ontario city/town/village.

Man your battle stns

Wow
I cant believe what I am reading. Take a close look at what you have been writting, you are all saying much the same thing. Phil has a great product, he is respected throughout your industry and is an expert ect ect. Yet he is not allowed to sell (or as indicated ) put his Brand on his product. I can only speak for myself but it seems he may have a much better marketing program that you. I have said it before and I will say it again, I as the AHJ for Calgary am willing to promote ANYONES certification courses. Please understand that we as AHJ's know nothing or very little about your industry and how it operates. What we do know is the codes and how they reflect the standard of work you are to preform too. We in Canada ARE moving toward having cleaners certified, we needed a base line or bench mark to work from. We in Alberta are not so nieve as to think only one company or association can meet this requirement but having said that we must start somewhere and yes we use PAC as our base standard, remembering we do accept the certification certificates of the others such as IKEKA, PWNA, It's just PAC has written in a clear form that we as inspectors can understand.

confused

ok maybe i'm asking for trouble but it seems to me that certification is fairly useless across the board ..... the hoods i've come across have been done prior by (certified companies)......not at liberty to say what cert. they hold but I hold a much higher standard....'it seem fairly simple "to bare metal" ...what's hard to understand? ......Well i'm the new guy (my opinion means less)and since i hold know cert.per say(my opinion means nothing). But ask the accounts i have they will tell you there is noe one better. Thier words not mine. My .02 cents

Tammy, tell me more about the guy down the road that will certifiy me for beer. I'll be glad to work with him to insure the quality of the beer.

Rusty, are you still a member of the 96 committee?

Everybody else, from the front cover of the 7 NFPA model codes at my desk the other codes are in the Sprinter) "Nor does the NFPA list, certify, test or inspect products, designs, or installations for compliance with this document. Any certification or other statement of compliance with the requirements of this document shall not be attributable to the NFPA and is solely the responsibility of the certifier or maker of the statement."

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc

Just to stir the pot a bit more
http://www.upyourstack.com/newsletters/122005/OPERATORS.asp



Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc

lou hoods and more

Lou
I agree with you .....To a point.... But the fact is Certification is on it's way, insurance companies have been pushing for the NFPA 96 Standard to be enforced by the AHJ's and in Canada it has been added in our newest revision of the code. Although it states "acceptable to the AHJ" The Standards are clearly outlined in the NFPA 96 document.Certification certificates issued by a recognized institution is the ONLY way AHJ's can be certain you have been taught and understand these standards. Not unlike the service companies certifying the suppression system. I would not want Joe Schmuck certifying my suppresionsystem knowing he was not knowledgeable to do so.

Your industry is gaining recognition for the importance of the service you provide; don't let your ego's get in the way. Being Certified proves to your customers you are good at what you do, it provides them with a level of security and confidence in you, and perhaps a long term contract.

I hope this gives some insight as to why certification is importantant from a AHJ's perspective Have a Very Merry Holiday Season Stan

Merry Christmas to ya'all eh !!

From My Family to yours have a safe and Happy Hoilday

I never have liked reading these pissing matches and have never entered into one....

However, from the skimming I have done in this and other threads, it appears that a PRIVATE intenty (Phil) is being used as the "standard". Is that HIS fault? Maybe... maybe not.... He certainly has the position to push his branding. No matter how smart or business savvy he is, there should not be a "HE" (or she) that is a standard.

Let the hood manufactures detail HOW the hoods should be cleaned. Then make the cleaners take a 50 question test with a governed (State?) licensing board to see if they have the knowledge and skills to maintain / clean a hood. This is the "standard" that MANY agencies use. Besides, a State Board will be a better authority (or rather avenue) than a local fire marshal. I have seen MANY new establishments that receive a C.O.O. with NO inspection from the fire marshal. And as a fire tech, I don't call the board everytime I see a violation, I call the company that is doing the work incorrectly. It's a type if "self regulation". What good is a "certification" if nobody will back that certification up? I.E. local / state fire marshals.

I have been working on portable extinguishers and fixed systems for several years. All I had to do (basically) was be certified by the MANUFACTURE to show my competence and then complete a State test (plus $1 zillion in fees) and then I am licensed.

What a GRAND IDEA! Who knows hoods better than the people that design and manufacture them! They know what a hood will look like in X months and what it should need. And if they DON'T, maybe people that are making these pushes should push for the hood manufactures to get training staff on board so that THEY will be compliant with "the new" NFPA or UL 300 or whatever "standard" is handed to them! Thus, taking the responsibility or liability off of Phil or Mr. Clark (as Phil called him )

I never ONCE had an Amerex instructor tell me "what to do if I find a piece of paper lodged into the discharge nozzle". I kinda figured some stuff out on my own because I have common sense.

If you set a "step by step" certification, EVERY hood cleaner will be looking at Phil on the witness stand with him saying "I told you NOT to lay that plastic on the floor..." ..... And you will be sitting there thinking to yourself "what does the plastic on the floor have ANYTHING to do with me being liable for this building burning..."? These standards need to be a general guideline, written by UNBIASED parties.

I hope you see the point I am making with the above analogy. It's almost like Phil is setting each and every one of us up to be the insurances skate goat. In no way am I saying he IS, it could possibly lead to something like that. I mean, he IS an expert witness. I am sure he (like any of us) work for whoever has the deepest pockets.

It is unethical for someone to profit from a position of enforcement (NFPA Board). It would be similar to a police officer saying "You MUST have MY driving school before you can get your drivers license; the cost is $5000 if you attend, or you can take it via the Internet for $2000, how would you like to pay?" So, if the intent is NOT to profit from the standards, Phil or anyone else that is on the board should step back and say "I am leaving my position to start my own business" or "I am no longer certifying hood cleaners, let's get these NFPA codes going!"

There just seems to be a conflict of interest here.....



I'd much rather be sitting down with everyone in a meeting and having an open discussion.... not in an Internet forum.

Well I could care less about all this bantor about certification............. well, until Douglas Hicks had to post the link to that article.


The article states among other things,

"Kitchen exhaust cleaning is not cosmetic -- It is first stage fire prevention!

But how do you choose the right vendor that will save you the loss of your restaurant?"

First quote-
"The first stage of fire prevention"- really? Hmmm... not sure how accurate that one is. I would think proper and maintained conditions of the cooking appliances would be the first stage. Then I would argue that properly maintained hood filters/baffles would be the next stage. Then I would argue that the automatic fire supression system (of course properly installed and maintained) would be the following stage. I might throw in there properly working exhaust fans and a host of other factors important to fire prevention but I digress....

Next Quote-
"But how do you choose the right vendor that will save you the loss of your restauarant?" Hmmm.... Well thats nicely put. Since I am a hood cleaner saving restaurants, than added to that list should be at least the following:

1. Whale beaching expert. As a hood cleaner I should be the first line of defense to get those whales back into the water.. I will pressure wash them back in.
2. Oil spill containment. As a hood cleaner I am the first line of defense against the Exxon Valdez. I shall do my best.
3. Heart surgeon. I am also the first line of defense against stroke and heart attacks. My vans are VERY clean and I can do emergency by-passes out in the field. There is very little licensing requirements in this industry but my guys JUST got certified like yesterday.
4. Terrorism. I am the first line of defense and I shall protect our borders and our country. I AM A HOOD CLEANER AFTER ALL.

The problem with this letter is that I can clean a restaurant that is on a 60 day cycle PERFECTLY to bare metal. Now on the 59th day (1 day before service for all you non-mathematicians out there) the hood system catches fire. Well of course there is grease in the hood that will contribute to the fire but the direction of this letter dictates the I am the FIRST line of defense and that the fire, tragedy, death and destruction that ensues is entirely my fault.

C'mon dude!. This is not marketing, this is scare tactics. Lets frighten you (the restaurantuer) into using our methods, consultations, products, etc. because if you don't your restaurant will burn to the ground and it will never re-open! I have been in business for as long as I have because I educate my customers, I don't frighten them into using my services.


If you want to promote your product through education, fantastic, but using scare tactics at our (the hood cleaners expense) is immoral! It probably scares alot of people into writing out some checks though. It is dissapointing to see this letter written in the manner it is, particularly because of Phils reputation and positive acheivements in the industry.

I could be wrong though... but it would be a first!

I'm sure we all know that 90% of the time the restaurant calls you out to clean the hood, all they are looking for is a sticker and a have a nice day. When you push the estimate across the table they start picking through it like the know the system better than you... the person they contacted for the job. "The other guy only charged $200, and what's this, 'Needs hinged' they never needed hinged before."

I think a good fire scare helps the restaurant owner recognize the importance of grease removal. It might be scary, but it's true. The statement in that article that concerned me was the shot taken at hood cleaners for giving free estimates. Trying to develop a trust between us and our customers can be negatively impacted by statements like this from people like Phil.

Richard-

I like your ego. It has improved many posts on this board.

Parker-

Please limit all of the complicated wording. My 2nd grade education isn't sufficient for your 3rd grade ranting. A simple Phil good or Phil bad would make it much easier to understand. BTW, I just happened to notice you still don't have your credentials listed. It is easy to take shots at people when no one knows who you are.

Bickering

Gentlemen.....I do not think this bbl was intended to be a battle ground but rather for the constructive passing of information. Getting into a pissing contest and belittling each other is not constructive. I was invited to participate on the bbl to give the AHJ's side on the subject of certification.This I have done

I have given you the reasons for becoming certified but most importantly you need to understand that it is the legislators who have introduced certification into the various Fire Codes, both Canada and the US. Not one individual.

The government(s) have chosen the NFPA 96 as the standard you will have to become certified to !!!!! Not IKEKA , PWNA , PAC or CHDCA. These institutions are the vehicles accepted by the AHJ's Wheather you agree or not sooner or later you will ALL need to be certified, arguing the point otherwise is mute.

Are you being forced into certification seems so, just like you are forced to wear seat belts or helmets or anything else put through legislation.

Please lets keep it civil and constructive ! Stan

Well, they should leave a hole in this legislation for those of us who have learned buy actually doing it for the past 15 years. If not then I will have to start my own school.

Maybe some kind of apprenticeship loop hole. Lets say 6 months service under a recognized and established company. I dont think anyone could argue that point. You can certinley learn more by doing the process for 6 months than you ever will at a class for a few days.
Keep in mind Im not nocking the education process.I just want to know that the Veterans arent getting left out.

Tim Cotter.
15 years of in field experience.

Apprenticeship

I like that idea !
Wonder how that could be implemented ?

Stan Sauve said:

Wonder how that could be implemented ?

Click to expand...

Which one? Certification? Or the loophole?

Sean-

I thought you were in IL. I just noticed your location says OKC. Am I confusing you with someone else?

Stan-

This battleground was just fine until you started trying to bring constructive information.

RustyACE said:

... Phil did an excellent job of compiliing the information in a easy to use format. Added nice pictures (a lot from Matt and this board) and cute cartoon characters and then copyrighted the material as HIS information and has proceeded to sell a lot of copies making money off of other people's information and expertise. How many royalty checks have been mailed to Matt, or the others who provided expert information for him to use in his manual?...

Click to expand...

Phil always pays us in cash. We get an all expenses paid trip up to Canada where the money drop is done and after that we fly to the Bahamas to filter the money through our offshore accounts so it is "clean" before we put it in the Bryan Exhaust bank account (not the one in Zurich, the one here in Burbank).

The new Fire Investigation manual is great by the way. There is only one major flaw that should be handled before any reprints occur, our name is mentioned AFTER Daryl Mirza!!! This error must be reconciled before any further printings occur!!!!!

And when you can't meet up, he wires the money to you from his Bahamas hotel room?

Matt
You keep supplying those super pictures and that is a deal Daryl Who!
I will be using several of them and you will get credit in a very positive manner in Arizona when I give a Fire Investigators Seminar (using the new manual) on the 25th of Jan.

Lastly, Grizz, I think it's time for me to make a new years resolution eh!