Just got this from PHX about Cleaning Run Off

[HotShot_Anthony]

This stuff is soooo freakin stupid. I cannot stand tree huggers! They are complete buffoons without a lick of common sense. This is one of the reasons that I never really pursued skirtwork.

All you have to do is follow the money to see how ridiculous this crap is. It's not ok if you don't have a permit, BUT if you give them money, then it's ok to dump whatever the hell you want pretty much anywhere. Idiots! Are we going to be fined if while we are camping, we take a crap and bury it?

When are common sense folk going to stand up to these panty wastes?

 

[Tony Shelton]

This stuff is soooo freakin stupid. I cannot stand tree huggers! They are complete buffoons without a lick of common sense. This is one of the reasons that I never really pursued skirtwork.

All you have to do is follow the money to see how ridiculous this crap is. It's not ok if you don't have a permit, BUT if you give them money, then it's ok to dump whatever the hell you want pretty much anywhere. Idiots! Are we going to be fined if while we are camping, we take a crap and bury it?

When are common sense folk going to stand up to these panty wastes?

Thank you.

How many millions of gallons of oil get washed off California freeways every month right into the storm drains?

Stupidity run rampant.

How 'bout that global warming....uh....I mean..climate change...

This all comes from people who's lives are so hollow with no meaning, they have to attempt to fill it with causes that are just as meaningless.

 

[Kory]

Just told this a few months ago.

City of Danville last year was removing Graffiti from a public building. They used hot water pressure washer with no detergent or product. The water went into a flower bed. NONE went into the street or storm drain.The flower bed was 10 ft wide before adjacent to the lawn, then another 25 ft to the sidewalk. EPA came by and saw the removal and asked " Where are the molecules of the paint going?" They replied " Evaporating or going into the dirt. EPA asked if the flower bed is lined to prevent the contaminated water from reaching the underground drinking supply? They said it had a weed bearer. EPA said " Not good enough. When it rains, the particles from the spray paint, which was proven by a recent study at UC Berkeley, was able to reach the underground drinking supply"

They got fined for particles entering the underground drinking supply.

In most cases in N. California, any graffiti removal must be captured, in some cases filtered, and then the substance MUST be sent to the sanitation facility. Using the landscape as a filter or thinking evaporation is acceptable are not valid options for graffiti removal any more in some cities of California.

In Contra Costa, pressure washing a Building with no detergent is being considered for reclamation.

I do not agree with this, however I do not make the laws.



Police are being asked to patrol at night to assist the SRWQCB and the local sanitation Dept's. in issuing fines. Lab trucks similar to, a James Bond movie, are on call.

One was called on a job we did. It had 6 stations with computerized micro scopes connected to (21 inch ) color LCD monitors. The inside was done all in white, 3 stations on each side. They analyzed my filter before, during the filtration process, and after, with ticket books and police in hand ready to fine me or worse. Thank God I passed, however I was shitting my pants during the 20 to 40 minutes it took them to analyze the test samples. This was for Garage Cleaning and not sidewalk cleaning.




Just some mindless info...

Currently, Lake Tahoe is the strictest city in the US for discharge and pressure washing, according to the SWRQCB. We are trying to get in, however, though our filter is 10 years ahead of State requirements, it may not be good enough for the requirements set forth in Lake Tahoe. They are asking that I do a $4,850 test before I am considered and then I am limited to volume of discharge.

So what action do you think they would take if no one was capable of this kind of work? would it build up till nature took care of it? then who is responsable for it?

Circle of life. It came from the ground it goes back to the ground.

 

[Tony Shelton]

Here is the outlined requirements for the PHX area. http://phoenix.gov/STREETS/pkggar.pdf This link tells you the procedures for cleaning sidewalks, shopping malls, garage cleaning, parking lots, etc.

Granted, not as restrictive as California, however the point here is that the new more restrictive requirements are moving east. California is the leader in storm water management requirements, however, they still have a long way to go.

Fines are the new thing now. Jack in the Box just got fined $10,000 for the oily build up from their parking lot stalls. When it rained, an oily residue went into the storm drain. THIS IS A FIRST IN CALIFORNIA that I am aware of.

A conference from all 50 states is being held here in California to "educate" other cities on the requirements set forth to pressure washers. Along with this meeting, Federal Guidelines and Code Enforcement Classes. This will include the area of the law that issues fines.

According to my contact, Dry Wells are covered in this and will not be allowed to dump into them unless they have an oil water separator installed, and was tested to meet or exceed State and Federal requirements for discharge prior to the cleaning. This "test" will be conducted on site by an Approved License State Contractor. Documentation will have to be available for inspection prior to any wash down or run off from the cleaning.

May I suggest that the Cities and States are looking for ways to increase their revenue. Fines are a good way to accomplish this without raising taxes.

If you do not have or know of the laws in your State, I suggest that you read up on the Federal Guidelines for discharge, also called "The Clean Water Act".

With this conference, it is my understanding that the cities will be hiring new inspectors to try to "catch" run off and illegal dumping into the storm drains and or dry wells. Already here in N. California, fines have hit over $300,000 from just hiring 2 new inspectors. Thats in 1 county alone.

If you think this is not coming to your neck of the woods, ask yourself this:

Do you honestly think that your city would not want that kind of extra revenue? Hense the conference.

Last count.... 435 confirmed RSVP. from across the country.

Looked up Contra Costa country trying to find BMPs for sidewalk cleaning like Ron and Scott do.

It directed me to these BMP's for the entire state. If you will notice there is no restriction on hot water if you are cleaning regularly without soap. I guess the state of California doesn't want to force you to buy reclaim equipment as bad as the PWNA does.

http://www.cabmphandbooks.com/Documents/Industrial/MobileCleaning_SurfaceCleaning.pdf

 

[Newlook]

Looked up Contra Costa country trying to find BMPs for sidewalk cleaning like Ron and Scott do.

It directed me to these BMP's for the entire state. If you will notice there is no restriction on hot water if you are cleaning regularly without soap. I guess the state of California doesn't want to force you to buy reclaim equipment as bad as the PWNA does.

http://www.cabmphandbooks.com/Documents/Industrial/MobileCleaning_SurfaceCleaning.pdf

Hey Tony,

Just an update to this thread. I think it is a few years old.

I am a pressure wash vendor for Contra Costa County. We recently performed building washes for them (County Buildings). I brought up the "reclaim" issue with them during my walk through of the proposed wash area. I was not required to reclaim as I did not use soaps. The only precaution they asked for was that I made sure that the water did not get to the storm drain. I had storm drains around the building but we pillowed them up with Storm Drain covers.

The first pic of course is the building wash for the County Sheriffs Department

Second pic is a different city in the Bay Area that also specifically told me that the waste water was permitted to enter the drain. I didn't use any soaps on this building either.

Our company is listed on several city and counties as a vendor to perform pressure wash services. I am not trying to agitate any discussion here but just simply pointing out the facts as they were explained to me from city and county representatives.

 

[Ron Musgraves]

Carlos I would pull your Photos down an Edit the post, you too will have your local PWNA.org officials attempting to sell your customers on different methods.

Hey Tony,

Just an update to this thread. I think it is a few years old.

I am a pressure wash vendor for Contra Costa County. We recently performed building washes for them (County Buildings). I brought up the "reclaim" issue with them during my walk through of the proposed wash area. I was not required to reclaim as I did not use soaps. The only precaution they asked for was that I made sure that the water did not get to the storm drain. I had storm drains around the building but we pillowed them up with Storm Drain covers.

The first pic of course is the building wash for the County Sheriffs Department

Second pic is a different city in the Bay Area that also specifically told me that the waste water was permitted to enter the drain. I didn't use any soaps on this building either.

Our company is listed on several city and counties as a vendor to perform pressure wash services. I am not trying to agitate any discussion here but just simply pointing out the facts as they were explained to me from city and county representatives.

 

[Christopher]

I wonder if the pwna members know what their leaders are doing to hinder, stop and hurt businesses of not only members but fellow contractors around the country?

 

[Scott Stone]

What? You mean that even in California, nano filtration with UV lights is not required for all pressure washing. Perish the thought.

 

[Tony Shelton]

What? You mean that even in California, nano filtration with UV lights is not required for all pressure washing. Perish the thought.

It's all been bs.

Thus far the only mention I have found of hot water being the same as using soap is in the wake of wherever Robert has been.

Why would he do that?

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

 

[Scott Stone]

This is easy enough, but technically, he is correct. However, realistically, these are loopholes that can be capitalized on to improve his market position.

 

[Tony Shelton]

This is easy enough, but technically, he is correct. However, realistically, these are loopholes that can be capitalized on to improve his market position.

I understand emulsification. But where are the studies that show that hot water runoff in any way compares to soap runoff? There are none.

Why not limit it to 200 psi while we are at it. Surely 2500 psi removes more dirt than 200.

These are artificial boundaries set to guaranty that we all reclaim.

The sad thing is the boundaries were set by us by trusting without verifying.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

 

[Christopher]

What these clowns and morons don't understand is that the hot water starts to cool down fast.

Hot water will never make it to any lake, river, stream or ocean unless maybe it is traveling in an insulated, heat jacketed pipe all the way there without any exposure to air or any other surface that will help it cool down any. Even steam pipes need insulation to help keep the steam as a vapor so it does not cool back down to a liquid.

Something else these morons don't know, understand or do and they are lying to city officials is that when you use hot water on concrete, the hot water cools quickly as it runs over the surface and eventually becomes ambient temperature (temperature of the surrounding area) more or less, the hot water will not stay hot forever. Does your hot cup of coffee or cocoa stay hot forever? NO. It cools down but not too quickly as it is in an insulated cup or mug. In a paper cup it cools faster than in a styrofoam cup.
The water loses it's heat as it moves over surfaces helping it cool down and eventually become the temperature that is outside.

Here is the funny and really stupid part: How is room temperature water (that was once hot) kill any marine life if there is no pollution, oil/grease or other contaminants? This is one of the lies they are trying to get city officials to believe and some blindly believe without thinking or using any common sense about all this.

HOT WATER WILL NOT STAY HOT FOREVER, IT COOLS DOWN.

So when they say that the hot water will kill marine life, who did this test?

Where was this study done?

Where is the proof to this worthless claim?

How did they do this? Pour boiling hot water into an aquarium to see if the fish would die?

Add some common sense to this and you will see that there is no way for hot water to travel a mile or more or less and stay hot, much less kill marine life.

Some morons might say that the added fresh water might kill marine life like shrimp. Sure it might, if the shrimp were living right at the point where the fresh water drains into the ocean but the last time they did freshwater studies where the river empties into the bay here, there are no shrimp living in the bay as there is too much boat activity, too many people in the water by the downtown area and too many aggressive fish there. I guess that is why the shrimp boats need to get away from the downtown area, go out way out into the bay but most of the time they end up going out into the gulf where all the shrimp are, hours away from where any fresh water empties into the bay.

By the time the fresh water gets into the bay, it starts getting more salty and becomes more like the rest of the water in the bay, if that water ever made it out into the gulf or the ocean, it would be salty just like the rest of the water, it would not be a huge plume of fresh water surrounded by a force-field keeping it fresh so that any marine life that swam through the force-field would die due to the lack of salt water (the fish would have to have a beaming or transporter device to make it through the force field or other similar technology).

Now do you see how RIDICULOUS this all is, especially when people are out there spreading all this NONSENSE, MIS-INFORMATION AND MOSTLY LIES!

Hope this puts an end to the hot water washing myth that is still being spread by the liars out there.

Maybe we can have MYTH BUSTERS do a segment for those idiots that don't have the common sense to realize how stupid the idea of hot water making it miles to kill marine life without insulated pipes or heat tracing to keep in the heat while it travels there.

 

[Tony Shelton]

Chris, Robert claims in his video that hot water acts as an emulsifier and breaks down oils and such.

I know what you are saying and you can bet that even the mention of hot water to some of these municipalities makes them think our water is 200 degrees when it hits the stream (if it ever does) miles away.

These are tactical errors that bring more negatives to the views of our industry for no reason whatsoever.

You know I service electrostatic filters. People who are uneducated in the physics of filtration have lots of objections to these filters. I have to go into a sale fully aware of all those objections and fully armed to combat them.

If I went in saying, "Well, I'd like to sell you these filters, but I'll use some other kinds of filters if you want me to", then I'd soon be out of business working out of my expertise and out of my business model.

Or if I went into a sale and showed a presentation showing why my filters suck, I'd soon be out of business too.

Robert has been making presentations demonstrating that we pollute. The demonstrations are faulty and have no basis in fact. Our impact is a net positive on the environment and that is how we should have been presented all these years.

Now we have to go back and try to undo the damage that has already been done.

But it gets worse - as we are trying to UNDO the damage - the PWNA, Robert, Jim Gamble and the likes are fighting against our industry as we speak perpetuating the myths.

What kind of an industry leader, in an economy like this, gets online and brags about preaching scare techniques and gets customers to pay ten times what they were paying for basically the same end result? (See Jim Gamble on the $1100 dumpster cleaning contract)

So now we are not only polluters of the environment, but we are in collusion to raise prices through deceptive techniques.

We need to shed ourselves of this mess.

 

[Ron Musgraves]

Heres the problem, we have guys like this that think showing these videos that are done incorrectly. He believes he is doing the right thing, however I see multiple things I would do very different.

Its easy for robert to show we are polluters , we have these kind of guys all over.

Chris, Robert claims in his video that hot water acts as an emulsifier and breaks down oils and such.

I know what you are saying and you can bet that even the mention of hot water to some of these municipalities makes them think our water is 200 degrees when it hits the stream (if it ever does) miles away.

These are tactical errors that bring more negatives to the views of our industry for no reason whatsoever.

You know I service electrostatic filters. People who are uneducated in the physics of filtration have lots of objections to these filters. I have to go into a sale fully aware of all those objections and fully armed to combat them.

If I went in saying, "Well, I'd like to sell you these filters, but I'll use some other kinds of filters if you want me to", then I'd soon be out of business working out of my expertise and out of my business model.

Or if I went into a sale and showed a presentation showing why my filters suck, I'd soon be out of business too.

Robert has been making presentations demonstrating that we pollute. The demonstrations are faulty and have no basis in fact. Our impact is a net positive on the environment and that is how we should have been presented all these years.

Now we have to go back and try to undo the damage that has already been done.

But it gets worse - as we are trying to UNDO the damage - the PWNA, Robert, Jim Gamble and the likes are fighting against our industry as we speak perpetuating the myths.

What kind of an industry leader, in an economy like this, gets online and brags about preaching scare techniques and gets customers to pay ten times what they were paying for basically the same end result? (See Jim Gamble on the $1100 dumpster cleaning contract)

So now we are not only polluters of the environment, but we are in collusion to raise prices through deceptive techniques.

We need to shed ourselves of this mess.

 

[Tony Shelton]

Yeah, but these guys aren't travelling from Colorado to talk to your local enforcement office.

It's bad enough when we have to combat it locally as Doug did. But the PWNA combined with Robert's retirement and the fact that Jim only does a few jobs per year makes it easy for them to come to any state they target and stir up misconceptions.

Jim would have never done this without the PWNA. He wouldn't even come to Las Vegas unless I guaranteed he wouldn't have to spend any money on hotels or food. He even suggested I pay for gas at first. He wouldn't come to Myrtle Beach because the tickets were too high. Instead he called me, Celeste, and everybody else trying to stir up trouble as far as his cell phone contract would reach on his budget.

This org has given him a national platform.

That is why this needs to be addressed by our industry now. We have an industry org behind this just like they were behind Mike Hilborne's "investigation".

 

[Ron Musgraves]

Thats great Carlos

Hey Tony,

Just an update to this thread. I think it is a few years old.

I am a pressure wash vendor for Contra Costa County. We recently performed building washes for them (County Buildings). I brought up the "reclaim" issue with them during my walk through of the proposed wash area. I was not required to reclaim as I did not use soaps. The only precaution they asked for was that I made sure that the water did not get to the storm drain. I had storm drains around the building but we pillowed them up with Storm Drain covers.

The first pic of course is the building wash for the County Sheriffs Department

Second pic is a different city in the Bay Area that also specifically told me that the waste water was permitted to enter the drain. I didn't use any soaps on this building either.

Our company is listed on several city and counties as a vendor to perform pressure wash services. I am not trying to agitate any discussion here but just simply pointing out the facts as they were explained to me from city and county representatives.

 

[Tony Shelton]

Ron,

You are right about the exhaust. Thats why we went with the diesels. They pollute less than the 24 hp gasoline motors. Our diesel engines are compliant till 2015. At that time we will be changing them out.

I have looked at the boilers as well. California, as of 2009, will be the first state which will not allow sale of boilers above 800,000 BTU. In 2012 I heard that will drop to 600k. If you already have a boiler set up in place, you will be grandfathered in providing it is mobile.

I looked at electricity before I built our first rig. Boilers heated by electricity are not efficient PERIOD. You need a minimum of 440 volts to heat the water up to 170 degrees. Also, the motors would need to be 220 if you want them to last more than 3 to 400 hours. If you got electricity from an outside outlet, they would only be on a 15 amp. This would drive 1 pump MAYBE on the entire outside circuit. If other units are on the circuit, such as lights, you would trip the circuit. Also you would have to considered the length of the extension cord. The longer the cord, the lower gauge wire you would need. ( the thicker the wire )

Then you have the water issue. Having as little as 220 volts will make you think twice before working with water and electricity. Severe burns will result in a mishap and possible death. 440 there is no possibility.. 440 will kill you.

So electricity is a good thought.... for mixing with water... thats not for us.

So apparently Jim is saying in this article that only he has equipment that will work and is legal.

When choosing a garage cleaning company to undertake this task, facility professionals should follow some of minimum garage cleaning requirements. First, ask how many GPMs the washer unit has. Then find out what is the PSI that will be used. The best answer: 5.8 GPM at 3500 PSI hot water pressure washer.

The washer needs pressure to clean but should not have too much. Most garage concrete surfaces can handle at least 5,000 PSI or more. The pressure washer who has at least 3,500 PSI but not more than 4,500 psi will be ideal. GPMs should be at least 5.6 to 6.8 GPM. Facility managers (fms) should ask to see specs on the equipment to ensure their suitability for the job.

Next, fms should investigate heat. The hotter the water the contractor is able to generate with his equipment, the more easily he will be able to remove oil and other deposits from the garage floor. Boilers should be at least 120,000 BTUs PER GPM. In other words, a 5.8 GPM washer should have a 696,000 BTU boiler to go alone with it ( 5.8 GPM x 120,000 BTU = 696,000 BTUs). This ratio will generate at least 250˚F steam to remove the oil from the pores of the concrete (250˚F is the minimum temperature necessary for the removal of oil from concrete.

Here is the full article:

http://www.todaysfacilitymanager.co...-exclusive-parking-and-public-perception.html

And this kind of sideways business tactics is what is representing us in front of officials.

It's pathetic.

 

[Tony Shelton]

Ron,

You are right about the exhaust. Thats why we went with the diesels. They pollute less than the 24 hp gasoline motors. Our diesel engines are compliant till 2015. At that time we will be changing them out.

I have looked at the boilers as well. California, as of 2009, will be the first state which will not allow sale of boilers above 800,000 BTU. In 2012 I heard that will drop to 600k. If you already have a boiler set up in place, you will be grandfathered in providing it is mobile.

I looked at electricity before I built our first rig. Boilers heated by electricity are not efficient PERIOD. You need a minimum of 440 volts to heat the water up to 170 degrees. Also, the motors would need to be 220 if you want them to last more than 3 to 400 hours. If you got electricity from an outside outlet, they would only be on a 15 amp. This would drive 1 pump MAYBE on the entire outside circuit. If other units are on the circuit, such as lights, you would trip the circuit. Also you would have to considered the length of the extension cord. The longer the cord, the lower gauge wire you would need. ( the thicker the wire )

Then you have the water issue. Having as little as 220 volts will make you think twice before working with water and electricity. Severe burns will result in a mishap and possible death. 440 there is no possibility.. 440 will kill you.

So electricity is a good thought.... for mixing with water... thats not for us.

So apparently Jim is saying in this article that only he has equipment that will work and is legal.

When choosing a garage cleaning company to undertake this task, facility professionals should follow some of minimum garage cleaning requirements. First, ask how many GPMs the washer unit has. Then find out what is the PSI that will be used. The best answer: 5.8 GPM at 3500 PSI hot water pressure washer.

The washer needs pressure to clean but should not have too much. Most garage concrete surfaces can handle at least 5,000 PSI or more. The pressure washer who has at least 3,500 PSI but not more than 4,500 psi will be ideal. GPMs should be at least 5.6 to 6.8 GPM. Facility managers (fms) should ask to see specs on the equipment to ensure their suitability for the job.

Next, fms should investigate heat. The hotter the water the contractor is able to generate with his equipment, the more easily he will be able to remove oil and other deposits from the garage floor. Boilers should be at least 120,000 BTUs PER GPM. In other words, a 5.8 GPM washer should have a 696,000 BTU boiler to go alone with it ( 5.8 GPM x 120,000 BTU = 696,000 BTUs). This ratio will generate at least 250˚F steam to remove the oil from the pores of the concrete (250˚F is the minimum temperature necessary for the removal of oil from concrete.

Here is the full article:

http://www.todaysfacilitymanager.co...-exclusive-parking-and-public-perception.html

And this kind of sideways business tactics is what is representing us in front of officials.

It's pathetic.

 

[Vince Wood]

I read the article. I had to stop though halfway through and go out to the truck to put on my water boots because the cr+p and BS was getting so deep.

 

[Ron Musgraves]

And another