Motor/belt driven surface machine vs. Typical water driven.

Clean County PW

Clean County PW

Active member
Why hasn't the everyday Powerwashing concrete cleaning jumped into the 21st century yet? Water driven surface machines are the norm. You buy a 24" surface machine it will run you aprox in the $600 range with some brands being more expensive and other brands maybe a few bucks cheaper.

Why don't we see belt driven surface machines of all different sizes being used? I now have 2 belt driven surface machines that clean much faster then the 6 water driven ones by far.

Both of these machines are setup to handle extremely hard concrete such as parking garages where 1 pass or 2 at most the surface is cleaned.

For residential because the tips are angled into the surface being cleaned and the bar is belt driven to the same direction there most likely to cause zebra striping as well as the water driven machines do.

A milder approach would be to build a surface machine where the tips are pointed straight down so the cleaning would be more even. Since these bars are spinning at a fast pace with more force being added in because where not talking spinning away from the surface being cleaned like what today's surface machines are basically doing, the bars should most likely be made with the angle needed for the cleaning with residential ones having tips point straight down to cause very little zebra striping. Since these are much more powerful type surface machines you can do most commercial type cleaning with these bars as well. Garage cleaning you want the most impacting force you can use to clean at a much faster pace.

Knowing that these type of machines clean 2 to 3 times faster and sometimes 4x if not more then why aren't they produced to the mass market here?

If someone doesn't start producing these soon then this may be the one time I consider heading towards the manufacturing end by designing some prototypes that aren't to expensive if they were massed produced. Wishful thinking....possibly... But when you think about it and you clean alot of concrete it makes you think that the water driven surface machine should go the way of the push blade lawnmower.

Thoughts??
 
Too heavy for retail work. I don't think the 'spinning away' is a real factor, as close as the nozzles are the impact is the same. The speed the nozzle is traveling away is not just subtracted from the impact, only a small portion (negligible IMO). The trick is to tune up the surface cleaner, make sure it spins fast enough especially. Add more power at the pump. I guess there's a place for them, but 300 lb surface cleaners don't seem that useful generally.
 
Hey Tom I thought that myself until I tried a surface machine that the bar spins thru the engine. The 300lb factor should be out. If your using a 24" surface machine it shouldn't way anymore then a self propelled mower of that size. Maybe 20 lbs more at most.

Next yr maybe at some of these RT's closer to me I'll either bring the turbo twister or if i go the route of doing a prototype smaller machine with a higher rpm with the bars spinning I'll bring it. There is no comparison between a belt driven spinning bar compared to a water driven surface machine which I have 6 of as well.

One pass on a commercial walkway should be what these machines should do. It's all speculation for now but will see.
 
Ron Musgraves said:
No use cleaning sidewalks


Text me anytime for question 480-522-5227
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Maybe not Ron. I just know when we do commercial store front walkways it's 2-3 passes with the surface machine for each path we take. A lawn mower type surface machine that is self propelled and weighs no more then what a typical mower weighs seems like it would work. Self propelled would be key and same goes with weight. Just thinking aloud on the message boards.
 
I think that one of the biggest drawbacks is the price, the Turbo Twister new (when they were making them) was over $4000.00 and to a lot of companies that is a lot of money, just about the price of some brands of hot water pressure washer skids.

I believe there is demand for the better surface cleaners but if the price came down a lot (great design with great mass-production methods to keep costs down some) then more contractors would buy them I am sure.

I like both the Turbo Twister and the Swabby but if someone could build something similar that did just as good of job, I think they would sell a lot of them but they would have to have a great, dependable swivel, easy to replace parts, easy to work on and not weigh a ton since most would probably be pushing them.

Another idea would be to build a deck that could bolt onto an existing zero-turn riding mower and attach with one belt so the deck would have to have a belt-tensioner and pulley height adjustment so it would fit on most zero turn mowers, this by itself, if it could be done could be double-duty as the mower could still be a mower and when needed for surface cleaning, just drop the mower deck and add the surface cleaning deck. With all the different brands of zero-turn mowers out there, it would have to attach easily and quickly thus the idea for the adjustable height pulley and tensioner both on the surface cleaner deck which I think could be done by someone that knows about these types of mowers and has experience working on them.
 
Christopher said:
I think that one of the biggest drawbacks is the price, the Turbo Twister new (when they were making them) was over $4000.00 and to a lot of companies that is a lot of money, just about the price of some brands of hot water pressure washer skids.

I believe there is demand for the better surface cleaners but if the price came down a lot (great design with great mass-production methods to keep costs down some) then more contractors would buy them I am sure.

I like both the Turbo Twister and the Swabby but if someone could build something similar that did just as good of job, I think they would sell a lot of them but they would have to have a great, dependable swivel, easy to replace parts, easy to work on and not weigh a ton since most would probably be pushing them.

Another idea would be to build a deck that could bolt onto an existing zero-turn riding mower and attach with one belt so the deck would have to have a belt-tensioner and pulley height adjustment so it would fit on most zero turn mowers, this by itself, if it could be done could be double-duty as the mower could still be a mower and when needed for surface cleaning, just drop the mower deck and add the surface cleaning deck. With all the different brands of zero-turn mowers out there, it would have to attach easily and quickly thus the idea for the adjustable height pulley and tensioner both on the surface cleaner deck which I think could be done by someone that knows about these types of mowers and has experience working on them.
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Right on Chris. At least you keep your mind open for designer thoughts. I like your idea about making a mower and a surface machine interchangeable. Excellent.

Also I agree with you on the price tag. The mass production would he tough but considering they sell the Landa surface machine for example of over a $1000 for a 20"water driven one I don't see why they can't produce a self propelled 24" surface machine that the bars are driven by a belt which would make push water driven surface machines like ancient history... But the price would have to be affordable which would be on a guess maybe in the $2000 range and of is mass produce it can be sliced almost in half. Maybe in the $1400 range.

Your idea of interchanging the Powerwasher surface machine with a lawnmower one is brilliant.. Running to the patent office now...J/K

Seriously if I ever put one of these together and use your idea above I'd call you first to discuss that and what some options can be.

As for now my Dad is a designer and he's coming over for X-mas dinner and this discussion was had yesterday and now he wants to see my machines to add some imput. I think I'm slowly going to potentially head a different direction with a few things in business.

Always enjoy thinking out of the box post like yours above-Thanks!!
 
John,
Since you use one. How fast can you walk (clean) with the engine driven cleaner compaired to the water driven?
 
I remember seeing an ad for some engine powered surface cleaners years ago and one was like 6 ft across. Lol
 
Hey Jim-- The turbo twister we got in the middle of the CT parking garage in October. I literally had to bring it up there in the box it came in. The swivel on it was shot. We did use it for a couple of hours but the swivel was leaking like a siv. So I ordered a new swivel and brought it for the last few days there. Then of course we ran into a problem with the Swabby when it was stored with the cleaning deck stored up but the guys didn't click in the pin to lock it in and in the travels the stored Deck was pushed into the Swabby frame and bent one of the swivels. So I had to use that new one on the Swabby.

The 2 Pittsburg garages we just did I put a different swivel I had for a spare on the turbo twister and it couldn't handle the speed and and then the pressure of the water along with the belt driven bars so because of no time now the turbo twister was shelved.

It should be ready in a month or so and iF I go to the potential Jersey RT in Feb I'll bring it and let you "Jersey" boys take some turns with it.
 
John, what brand of swivel are you using on the Swabby and the Turbo Twister?
 
The Swabby I had a few extra swivels from Bill Clemmons which now I'm down to the last one on the Swabby. I used the other ones when I needed them on different surface machines. I'm Hitting a blank on the brand. I bought 2 swivels with one being for the Swabby which was the Steele eagle Talon with the dueblin swivel and the Turbo twister I bought the whisper wash swivel because it looked like it would fit pretty good.

But then we bent the Talon on the Swabby because we didn't use the pin lock to hold the Swabby deck up when it was in the trailer and the Swabby banged around in there while traveling and it bent the Talon which is probably now garbage. So the whisper swivel had to go on the Swabby because that machine is our ace. The turbo twister I put one more spare swivel on it and it couldn't handle the speed and the pressure going the it so now the turbo twister is down.

Probably going to put the talon 4 deublin swivel on it. What do you think?
 
I believe that the Talon 4 swivel is rated to 300 degrees and 5000psi unless I am mistaken.

I was talking to a couple engineers and they both told me that the surface cleaner swivels don't hold up over 2500 rpm's and the tech guy over at Steel Eagle told me the same thing. I am guessing that something could be made for higher rpm's but then the heat range might suffer or for both it might be very, very expensive.

I talked to the tech guy at Whisper Wash and he told me that the new swivels (that have the cartridges that you change out instead of rebuilding) are rated more for commercial use and should last longer than the old style swivel.

Here is a question that will help in the building or manufacturing of a belt-driven deck: On the Zero turn mowers, how fast are those blades turning under the deck? Or, how fast are the spray bars under the swabby turning? Is there any info on that? How long do those bearings last and how many rpm's are they rated for?

I have an idea Hmmmmmm....................................
 
Good questions Chris and unfortunately I can't answer them with facts because Bill Clemmons has disappeared from the Industry. Phone numbers are no longer connected. He's on my list of people to track down for discussion purposes only. Until then I can only try to remember what I was told.

For Nicholas above-- the swivels are above the deck. When the deck folds up for storage there's a foot plate above them that gets lifted up or taken off so the deck can fold upwards for storage where it pin locks to stay in place. Since the Swabby was against the back door of the trailer when the gate closed the deck lifted. Stupid idea because the pin locks weren't set to lock it in place so when the trailer moved it bent the swivel.

Chris the guess is the bars are spinning around 2200rpm's. I had the bars redesigned a couple of yrs ago to be straight and this eliminated the vacuum ability of the swabby which I never cared for anyway. There's a video online where a guy made the deck of a Swabby able to be hooked to a vacuum hose and that's what I would've done myself instead of Bill Clemmons tenant squeegee style.

For now I put probably 30+hrs on the whisper wash swivel thats on there now with the other swivel being the ones that came with the Swabby. I'll have to post pics of this another day.

I know Jim Gamble uses Dueblin swivels that are rated pretty high on his turbo twisters and there not cheap. He also jacked up the RPM's of his turbo bars when they spin so his twisters clean better and faster. He doesn't look to cut cost on his equipment because he's all about making more money per hour and getting the job done faster without doing any lesser of a Job.

Sometimes my philosophy of doing things a little cheaper in some areas may not always be the best way when it comes to some of these machinery items. Swivels alone can shut you down if they start to malfunctioned so those are one of the things I'm going to look more into once I get this trailer I purchased in PA this coming Saturday.

I need to get my equipment functioning better because where taking in more parking garage work and in those monsters at least in my experiences your equipment will get tested to it's limits and once again in my case I need to spend less time fixing things in there because it can and does slow my guys down..

So what's your idea?? PM me if you want to keep our speculative thoughts private.
 
Clean County PW said:
Hey David how's my 11gpm @4500 psi UDOR pump holding up? I miss that beast.
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It's still running like a champ John. I put new pickings in it and had to buy new glow plugs for the motor and a starter solenoid but besides that no problems. I priced that pump a while back and it was $5600! It is a beast for sure!!
 
Cooper said:
It's still running like a champ John. I put new pickings in it and had to buy new glow plugs for the motor and a starter solenoid but besides that no problems. I priced that pump a while back and it was $5600! It is a beast for sure!!
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Puke!! Well I'm glad your using that pump. Dumb of me to not look into what that pump cost before I sold you that set-up but it's good hearing that your getting good use out of it all--Enjoy.
 
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