Got a question on fire inspectors

max_rob

max_rob

New member
How would any of you approach a situation where the fire inspectors never inspect anything until there is a fire. at least 90% of the hoods i clean are really discusting the first time I clean them. For example, it took 4 days to clean hardee's and perkins. I swear to god they had years of grease build up. And I am talking about digging out and scrapping 4 inches of rubberized grease from the hoods and fan bowls. It is so bad, i charge tripple for a first time cleaning. then go back to regular pricing after that.
 
I really dont think there is any thing you can do...

They are the ahj in your area, so they are the boss!!!

Go buy a copy of Phil Ackland inspector book and send it to them,
with out a return address...

Matt
 
http://www.philackland.com/
A link for Phil Ackland
All you can do is find them and see if they are willing to set down and talk to you. My experience is you will encounter someone who thinks he knows more than you and won't be willing to listen to anything you have to say, or they will hide behind the we don't have they man power excuse. You may have better luck if you can talk to some of the insurance carriers, they can put the pressure on and will if they know the situation.
 
There are a number of proactive ways that you can attempt to interact with AHJ's and establish a rapport;
> Offer to clean fire station exhaust systems and use the cleaning as an
opportunity to demonstrate an exhaust system cleaning and show fire
inspectors what to look for and where to look.
> Offer copies of your exit reports or post service follow up reports to the
AHJ.
> Attend a local fire association meeting and offer your knowledge and
experience.

I have tried all of the suggestions listed and I have had good success. We have established ourselves as reputable cleaners and we have a good rapport with AHJ's. We have been invited to participate in a local fire associations 1/2 day training session for Inspecting Kitchen Exhaust Systems with a fire suppression company. We are working on the potential for a training seminar at a state level with Phil Ackland (see www.greaseinspectors.com).
 
We all need to back Phil and his Ideas, Once all of these inspectors are trained in this hardly touched area of duct inspection, we will all gain more work and profits and weed out these rag and tag outfits...

Matt
 
We cover such a broad area, tracking down and talking to AHJ’s has always seemed to be a huge time consuming task. I did speak briefly to the state of MD fire marshal a few years ago, and he told me I needed to go to each local, which at this point is just not in the cards for me. The thing that really burns me is that inaccessible ductwork is still routine in new construction. I'm talking about ductwork that you can't even get to install access panels.
 
There is such a huge difference between the mechanical code and the nfpa, We try to follow the nfpa and they build and follow the other...

Do they have anything in the works, that make the two meet in the middle?????

Matt
 
NFPA has introduced NFPA 5000, a model building code. It has met w/strong opposition from building inspectors. The main difference between NFPA and the other model codes is that NFPA is a consensus driven organization. the other code organizations are driven by only a small group. In other words, pay your $115.00 membership to NFPA and you are allowd to propose, and vote on code changes. The other groups have a much more restrictive membership list and may require you be a building inspector to be a member. I prefer NFPA for life safety/fire codes because the codes are much stricter, and well thought out. In fact, the other model codes refer to NFPA for fire sprinkler, fire extinguisher, suppression system in hoods, fire alarm and the NEC (National Electrical Code). Unfortuantly, most inspectors know nothing about fire codes, nor do they care to know. In most new construction projects I have been involved with, carpet color is given more consideration than life safety/fire protection.

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc
 
Here lies our challenge, trying to service customers, fire marshall's and the contractor. I have seen things in this state that would boggle the mind. As a cleaner, all we can do is point out the issues of concern and go to the next customer for service.

The other problem is the cleaner is held at a higher standard because he is the last to service and the builder is long gone and the AHJ will sign off on a fortune cookie.

Yesterday, I visited a new construction and the fire marshal is requiring the system to be cleaned before the unit is to be opened. The system was a converted hospital unit with a clean system. I told the customer that it was clean and it met standards, however the inspector will not sign off on other unrelated issues.

David:confused:
 
Phil Ackland is developing the trainers and the network to train fire inspectors using one and two day power point presentations, this is going to be one answer to some of the issues that have been presented on this thread.

There are two sides to every issue and the part of this package that we are all going to have to bear as cleaners is increased awareness and enforcement by the AHJ's. With greater attention that is going to be focused on our industry as a whole we are going to be compelled to meet higher standards. One of the first things we are going to see is a requirement that we develop an Owners and "Lead Hand" (crew leader) program in our businesses as a first line of accountability, it's already happening in one of the provinces in Canada (see a related post http://www.pwnabbs.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=482).

I have already heard the argument that cleaners presently have to bear the brunt of standards and enforcement, it's a phenomenon I call "blame the hood guy". If you wanted an idea of where it is headed you could look at the fire suppression side and the requirements that they have to meet. We have an opportunity to lead our industry into the next decade and have some influence defining the industry and the standards that we will be compelled to meet. I would encourage any cleaner's that are interested to take a proactive role and get to know their AHJ's, opportunities will develop to attend meetings and training sessions and lead our industry.;)
 
Talked to the inspector here

I talked to the inspector here, and you were right, he didn't have the resources to cover the area. I then talked to some of my competition, and I came up with a plan to compete with the lowballers that don't do the quality job that I do. I have decided to only clean the fan area for the same price they are cleaning only the hoods. The difference is I will explain to the customer that they could save money on cleaning if they kept the hood vent area clean. I would do the trouble spot on top of the roof and they could simply pay for that. If they want the shaft or the hood cleaned then they could opt for that, but there would be an additional charge for it. This would in turn make me money on cleaning. It would also give me the price I deserve for doing the whole thing if they opt to do it. Please keep in mind I have only sold a few of these deals, but it seems to get me into some more places. I guess there is a way to work around the competition, and still make money. The difference is still being honest with the customer, and not making them think they are getting something they are not.
 
Each job that you put your name on must be to NFPA96 standards. The complete job for a price or walk. Simple plan. I sent a crew out of town to service a unit that was a can of worms. Old building-three stories-20 hoz. section with a 90 to a roof fan that was not working. The 90 had one door and the slope was to the door. It has not been cleaned for years, but it was cleaned in Nov 02. My estimate was $800-$1000. We backed out of the job, because we wanted to evaluate the situation with a plan.

Why am I telling this story? We could have sent a bill for $835 and no one would be the wiser. That is what the last guy did. Once I start the job it will be completed the right way and I will get paid what is expected.

David
 
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Max
While I can certainly understand your frustration, I don't think that doing half of the job, even if you tell the customer what you are doing and bill accordingly is the right thing to do. Your job is not to clean ducts and fans, your job is to prevent fires, and cleaning these things are a part of that, if you only do half of a job are you making the system fire safe?
Now having said that here is a question for the rest of us. If we have place and I'm sure most of us do that needs access panels and won't get them or pay to get them installed and we can only clean the duct in part, should we continue to service that account or refuse service until the situation is resolved? Knowing that this probably means we never see it again, and is continued service to this account not the same as what Max was talking about when he only does the fan and duct with the customers approval?
 
I would continue to service the account and note those areas that was unable to be serviced due to owners choice of no access door placement. We can clean and educate the customer as to the code and so on. Our mission for the most part is complete. However we should continue to bring this to the customer so that he is aware of the problem.


David
 
in response

well dave, the way i see it is like this. In my area, there are no enforcment of regulations, fire code, etc. It's like having speed limits with no cops around to enforce. My competition is not cleaning the whole system, and they are charging accordingly. The difference is that I would do basically the same thing, but I would inform the customer. Hopefully the customer ops to have the whole thing done, and that would be great. But when you have to bid a job around what the competition is, then it isn't making any money. I can understand you saying that I shouldn't take the job, but one thing is constant in this business. You need jobs, to have the bills paid. I know that when the weather breaks, there will be no problem in not taking these kinds of jobs, but when you only have so much work to do, then it isn't a good idea to turn down work that pays bills. I wish that regulations, and laws were effective around here, but it comes down to the fact that they aren't due to no enforcement of the regulations or laws. And to make the whole thing worse, is the resturants know this. They know that their system isn't being cleaned right, and they don't care, as long as they can say that it was being cleaned on a regular basis when the fire occured. Nobody has went out of business around here doing it this way, so I can't see any end to it. The one good competition tells me that they get the resturant job once a year to do a good cleaning, and then the resturant just goes back to the cheaper service for the rest of the year. So ho hum. what is a guy to do. LOL.
 
I know what you are saying, when I first started I took what ever I could get, $175 is better than $000 when you are trying to survive. Think about this. Are you covered if one of those places burns down and you knowingly only cleaned part of it, even if that is what the customer told you to do? I would make sure that the bid sheet and invoice clearly state exactly what is being done and get signatures. I would also add a paragraph that highly recommends a complete cleaning in big bold letters.
I was told once by a customer that they no longer required our service, well they never had it cleaned and a year later it burned to the ground, their lawyers sued me along with anyone else who had anything to do with the exhaust from installation on. It was eventually dropped but it did cause me to lose my Liability insurance, which I now pay almost double for.
My point being make sure it is worth it to you, as for the guy who goes once a year and cleans up everybody’s mess after they neglect it for a year, I hope he charges well for that.
 
KMJT,
very good point, but yes I do spell it all out on the proposal, along with the recommendation for full cleaning. From what I have observed and know about, when a place does burn down, and they do, there is no action taken against the washing companies, since there isn't any legal requirments. The only requirements around here are the fire codes, in which it is the resturants responsibility to make sure are implamented at all times. I really think that it falls to the insurance companies to drive a change, but they don't seem to care or are just not aware. I can only take the steps that I feel will protect me against legal action. I am sure that the companies will eventually come around. I just bid a job and actually got a monthly agreement for cleaning the fan and the floors. Go figure.
 
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