How does this pressure washer look to you?

R

RockoT

New member
I have always owned direct drive pressure wahsers around 3,000-4,000PSI @4GPM. They last a few years.
I am considering buying my first belt drive machine.
Is it really that much worth it getting a belt drive?
Do the belts go often?
More or less maintinance?
I think direct drive units operate around 2,000-2,800RPM right?
Would do the belt drive units operate around.

Well here is the machine:

41-61.jpg


Its a 3500PSI 5.6GPM for $2,200

HWEBS Series (Twin Cylinder)
Honda “GX” Gas Engine
18,000-25,000 Cleaning Units
Chemical Injector Kit
13” Tubed Pneumatic Tires
50’ Steel Braided Hose
“EZ” Start Adjustable Unloader
Thermal Relief Valve (145°)
Four “Quick-Connect” Spray Tips
Industrial Pump
36” Insulated Lance
4000 PSI Gun
Belt Drive
Stainless Steel Frame


I have always had either CAT or A/R pumps on my direct drive machines, but this one has a General Pump.
How does that pump rate up? better or not as good?
or better for a belt driven unit?

Sorry for the 20 questions
thanks for any replies though
 
Direct drive usually operate at 3600 rpm for both the engine and the pump. Belt drive is usually 3450 to 3600 for the engine and 1450 for the pump.
If one items fails on a direct drive they usually take the other with it. Battery should last a good amount of time if the charge system is working normal. My Honda 20 hp does not have a pull cord as backup, so i may be in a bind one day.
I also run a general pump and have had no trouble. That looks like a decent machine for the price, and it has a decent size gas tank also.
 
I've had general pumps that have held up fairly well. I have never had trouble with belts.
 
Direct drive pumps run at 3400 rpm.

Belt drive offers many benefits. They will actualy pump water and have approxiamtly 6' of lift. Lowwer rpm should mean longer life.

d.d. requires a flooding type conection. Caution must be used when hooking to a tank. Tanks must be set up higher than the pump. Shaft keys on this type of engine can occasionly present problems.

I have AR and General pumps and have received good service from both.
 
What gives the belt drive the ability to lift water vs. a direct drive not having the ability?

Is this a P/W myth???? .....YES!
 
Yeah very true I once had a water source that was on the 1st floor and my machine was on the 3rd floor. and it had absolutly no problem bringing the water up 40ft. and i had a direct drive unit.
 
Paul,
I was stating published facts coming from the manufactures themselves.

I beleive their engineers findings are reliable. Are you of that disipline? If so can you explain why you think they are wrong?

The rpm the pumps are designed to run at limits/enhances there ability to pump water under zero pressure.

So I would say no it is not a myth.
 
"I beleive their engineers findings are reliable. Are you of that disipline?"

YES, I am of the engineering discipline. I spent 27 years in engineering - special machinery for P&G, Dupont, Ford, Sony, 3M, Campbell & Housfeld and others.

If engineering information is so reliable, why do a lot of pressure washer manufacturers tell you to adjust water pressure with the unloader instead of changing out nozzles?

Not all pumps (designed and engineered) are created equal.
Who owns the patent to the best triple plunger pump design?
Unless you purchase the rights to copy, you have to make your design different.
Pump design has more to do with its ability to "suck" than the type of drive attached to it and its speed. The performance and reliability are determined by part tolerancing, material selection, along with the design and engineering of each individual component. Plunger diameter, stroke length and speed determine displacement in volume.

If money was not a part of the equasion would you buy a Comet or CAT pump?

I will go as far as to say that typically a CAT direct driven pump will have more "sucking" power than a Comet belt driven pump.
 
Paul,
Again I was using information provided by pump manufactures.

Some pressure washer mfgs. do tend to manipulate the facts to work for them.

I have spoken to engineers at GP and AR. I respect their engineers opinions regarding their products.

Who owns the patent to the best triple pluger pump made?
Hmmm. I don't know for sure but would guess that Gail Industries does. Do they license the rights to CAT?

But please tell me? Also tell me what this has to do with the original question that was asked.

Hey what university did you get your degree from?

With all your experiance why are you dabbling with pressure washing anyway?
 
Bruce:

Likely the same reason I'm dabbling with Pressure Washing...Because I want to, because I don't want to work for someone else, and because I realized I don't want to spend my days working inside.

It doesn't take a degree to have an understanding nor experience in a field. I'm not a degreed accountant, but I can hold my own with most. Hands-on learning counts for a whole hell of a lot more than a degree on the wall.

I can think of no reason why a belt drive pump would generate more sucking power than a direct drive pump. Can you?
 
Oneness,

Like I said before it is all factual. Go to AR, GP, IP or Cat's web sites and read the specifications for the best direct drive and a comparable belt drive.

A D.D. pump does not come even close to having the lift capabilities as a belt drive.

A belt drive is the better all around choice for most professionals.....

No disrespect meant to anybody......

It is sad to say in most cases experiance in the corporate world today means nothing without at least a four to eight year degree.
 
YES we did digress ...but in my opinion CAT makes the best plunger pumps. Belt drives will make pumps last longer in each brand as they run at lower rpm than direct drives. Improper belt tensioning can make belts wear fast and belts tensioned too much can exert overhung load on pump and motor bearings, which can lead to early bearing failures.

"I can think of no reason why a belt drive pump would generate more sucking power than a direct drive pump. Can you?"

Plunger pumps are not designed to "suck" water but rather to have water supplied under pressure.

In every lie there is truth, as I said: "Not all pumps (designed and engineered) are created equal." and "The performance and reliability are determined by part tolerancing, material selection, along with the design and engineering of each individual component. Plunger diameter, stroke length and speed determine displacement in volume." and I'll add here that this will also determine how well a pump will "suck" despite the fact that they are not specifically designed to do it.
In other words, the difference is in the pump design and not the drive itself.

Giant does say that THEIR 3400 rpm Plunger Pumps REQUIRE
15 psi minimum inlet pressure.

The concern in most cases is not to cause cavitation on these pumps as they are more sensitive to running without water.
As you can imagine, a pump running at 3400 rpm (without water), will fail almost 2-1/2 times faster than the same pump running at 1250 or 1450 rpm.

Other factors also enter into the pumps ability to "suck" such as viscosity and temperature of the medium.


"With all your experiance why are you dabbling with pressure washing anyway?"
You never know how one thing will lead you to another and all experiences (even bad ones) can be good.

Where I received my degrees are not relevant, as they are only a small part of the foundation to everything else that I have experienced before and after. I believe that life is a full time education no matter what you do.
 
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I managed a lot of higly educated people and hate to say that about half of them wasted their money because it did nothing to improve their common sense.

I also managed a fair number of people with 30 plus years of experience - some, whose experience was the same 1 year experience over 30 times (years).
 
Sorry to get back on subject...
So then You guys all think that this is a good machine?
Anyone find anything similiar that might be better in any ways?
I still have my options open. I am still in my research phase.
 
High RPM direct drive pumps are like gasoline engines; lot's of horsepower but no torque.

Low RPM belt drive pumps are like diesel engines; lower horsepower but lot's of torque.

Torque is a function of stroke length, horsepower is a function of swept volume.

In general gasoline engines have high RPM, small volume pistons moving a lot of air and they do provide a very small vacuum. Ask any mechanic.

In contrast, diesel engines have long strokes to arrive at the same swept volume in larger pistons at lower RPM and a lot of vacuum. That is how an engine brake works by applying that vacuum to the exhaust valves to create backpressure that diesel engine lack when you let off the throttle.

Piston and plunger pumps are the same. On average a high RPM and therefore direct drive pump will have ~1/2" of vacuum. These pumps require a pressure feed to prevent cavitation as they are NOT self-priming and do not naturally suck very well. If you have as much as 60 PSI feeding the pump then it will pump the water up two stories or more depending on the horsepower supplying the pump. There is NO WAY that a direct drive pump could self-prime and move water two stories if drawing from a tank.

Belt drive pumps typically have longer strokes to compensate for the lower RPM. This means that in general they have a 6" water lift (vacuum) which translates into the ability to suck water ~6' straight up. This means they are self-priming from a supply tank and only really require flooded suction to the head to get things started.

Getting back to the belt drive General pump versus the direct-drive units you have had, it is simple. The series most often used is extremely reliable and economical to repair. They suck soap very well, are quiet and very long lived.

Cat makes very good pumps with few compromises and that shows in their pricing. Gail makes probably the best pump for the dollar but has essentially abandoned the pressure washer market.

Wheatley, although specializing in oil field pumps, make a versatile but extremely expensive pump used by some pressure washers.

A/R as well as Bertolini and Legacy have well deserved reputations. Comet, Hawk and Admiral are very good in certain applications.

DO NOT USE 'CLEANING UNITS' as a measure of pressure washer performance; EVER. It means exactly nothing and if you do a search you will find out how I have proven why.

So, Paul B., regardless of your engineering knowledge, the above are the facts as known by every hydraulic engineer regarding the differences between dricet and belt drive pumps based on RPM. Remember this, for a 1450 RPM pump to push 4 GPM it MUST have a longer stroke than a 3450 RPM pump pushing the same amount of water.

Diesel torque versus gasoline horsepower. Torque always wins, that is why commercial trucks are all diesels.
 
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Michael,

Now I understand. You guys were talking about sucking straight up from a tank. I guess my direct drive unit only worked 2 stories up because I was hooked up to a facet and not a tank, so the water was actually pushing itself up and the machine wasn't really doing any of that work at all.
 
Michael,

I agree with the terms "on average and in general" as describing the issues and I don't diagree with the principles of hydraulics.

I hope we can agree at least that there are differences in designs from brand to brand and the fact that these pumps were not designed to "suck" water but were designed to be force fed.

Also I hope we can agree that you don't necessarily need a longer stroke to increase/decrease the volume, but you can also do it by increasing/decreasing the diameter. Water does not compress however, when you are trying to compress air, the longer stroke helps to achieve a higher compression rate. Seal design/engineering is a key factor in over or underachieving vacuum or compression.

As in engine performance enhancements such as porting and polishing, there are enhancements that have been engineered that can increase performance in pumps.
 
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