Muratic Acid
- Thread starter outlaw
- Start date
let's see
bleach kills organic growth and muratic acid eats lime. So the bleach kills whats on top and the acid eat's the top off the cement. Not to mention what the EPA would say if they find you letting it go down a storm drain.
Is the acid really cheaper then $1 a gal?
The acid is also a lot more dangerous to you and plant life.
It will make an old driveway look new because it eat's the top off. Nuet. it with a baking soda and brighten with oxalic acid.
if you do one little spot with mur. acid you'll have to do the whole driveway.
be safe,good luck.
bleach kills organic growth and muratic acid eats lime. So the bleach kills whats on top and the acid eat's the top off the cement. Not to mention what the EPA would say if they find you letting it go down a storm drain.
Is the acid really cheaper then $1 a gal?
The acid is also a lot more dangerous to you and plant life.
It will make an old driveway look new because it eat's the top off. Nuet. it with a baking soda and brighten with oxalic acid.
if you do one little spot with mur. acid you'll have to do the whole driveway.
be safe,good luck.
That was a good answer, but where do you guy's find bleach for a buck a gallon. at the local Wal-mart, it tends to run around $1.20 for 3 quart bottles, which isn't a huge problem, but if I can find it cheaper , it would be better,
as my Grandma used to say "look after the pennys and the pounds will look after themselves"
Gav
as my Grandma used to say "look after the pennys and the pounds will look after themselves"
Gav
Gav,
Many concrete cleaner are acid. I have never used any with pool acid. I have used many other types.
How ever plants will not be affected necessarily by acid. That would all depend on the PH level I your soil. Direct contact will certainly kill anything. Running off into the soil is something you would need to check in your area.
Acids and ammonias are commonly used for sterilization in dairy’s and restaurants. (DO NOT MIX ACID WITH Ammonia or bleach. ))) It could result in death.
Acid is as cheap as caustic in raw form. It’s less than a dollar a gallon to use. Often less than one dollar per 5 gallons.
Everyone has this misconception about using acids, guys clean trucks with acid others clean mobile homes. It’s as dangerous as caustic; I think you can control it and neutralize it easier. On the scale they both are rattlesnakes as Bigboy would say.
Good luck Gav,
Many concrete cleaner are acid. I have never used any with pool acid. I have used many other types.
How ever plants will not be affected necessarily by acid. That would all depend on the PH level I your soil. Direct contact will certainly kill anything. Running off into the soil is something you would need to check in your area.
Acids and ammonias are commonly used for sterilization in dairy’s and restaurants. (DO NOT MIX ACID WITH Ammonia or bleach. ))) It could result in death.
Acid is as cheap as caustic in raw form. It’s less than a dollar a gallon to use. Often less than one dollar per 5 gallons.
Everyone has this misconception about using acids, guys clean trucks with acid others clean mobile homes. It’s as dangerous as caustic; I think you can control it and neutralize it easier. On the scale they both are rattlesnakes as Bigboy would say.
Good luck Gav,
18 Baume Muriatic acid (sold in retail stores) contains about 27 % Hydrochloric acid. Even at a 1:3 dilution (9%), it will etch the concrete. It will also leave a film that needs heavy rinsing to remove. Muriatic acid is also not as effective in breaking down dirt, oils and grease as a Sodium Hydroxide solution would be.
You can by liquid chlorine from a pool supply store in 1, 5 or 55 gallon containers (it runs about $2.25 per gallon OR LESS in 5 and 55 gallon sizes). This is about 10-12% Sodium Hypochlorite vs. 6% grocery/K-Mart bleach.
Safety-wise: I would go with bleach vs. Muriatic acid.
Cleaning-wise: In my opinion, bleach cleans concrete better than straight Muriatic acid.
Safety First and Make It Last!
Regards,
You can by liquid chlorine from a pool supply store in 1, 5 or 55 gallon containers (it runs about $2.25 per gallon OR LESS in 5 and 55 gallon sizes). This is about 10-12% Sodium Hypochlorite vs. 6% grocery/K-Mart bleach.
Safety-wise: I would go with bleach vs. Muriatic acid.
Cleaning-wise: In my opinion, bleach cleans concrete better than straight Muriatic acid.
Safety First and Make It Last!
Regards,
Paul, do you use acid when cleaning bricks?
Great reply, bleach is safer than acid. I was refering to the highest concentration castic you could by depending on your area. the dangers are the same just at different ends of the scale.
acid
http://msds.pdc.cornell.edu/msds/msdsdod/a344/m171830.htm#Section3
caustic
http://msds.pdc.cornell.edu/msds/msdsdod/a14/m6848.htm#Section3
Great reply, bleach is safer than acid. I was refering to the highest concentration castic you could by depending on your area. the dangers are the same just at different ends of the scale.
acid
http://msds.pdc.cornell.edu/msds/msdsdod/a344/m171830.htm#Section3
caustic
http://msds.pdc.cornell.edu/msds/msdsdod/a14/m6848.htm#Section3
Ron,
Yes, we use Prosoco and sometimes Diedrich acid based products. The Prosoco is more available and I've been able to negotiate a better price with our supplier.
I agree - anything in the 1 or 14 area on the PH scale should be handled with extreme care (skin contact and inhalation).
One of the reasons that Muriatic has been shied away from by a lot of people in the masonry arena is because it is sold in different qualities (Baume). The higher quality (23 Baume) runs about 37% Hydrochloric acid and the lower quality (18 Baume) runs about 27%. The MSDS which you point to is 22 Baume (or about 34%). Lot of end users didn't realize the differences. After they have used it once they neglect to read the label everytime they buy and assume it's all the same and mix it the same proportion. This is where the trouble starts - especially if you purchased 18 Baume the first time and 22 Baume the next.
The same applies with caustics - lot of cleaners contain maybe 5%-20% sodium hydroxide. The one you point to contains up to 40% - large difference.
Like you said - it's very important to READ the container label and MSDS and understand what you are using and what impacts and dangers you are getting exposed to. Everything can be handled safely if you know what it is.
Of course, you can't neglect the fact that each type of solution has a different cleaning value.
The internet has made information availability such a convenience and there are still a lot of people that will not use the search feature. Search, ...Read, Search ...Read ...
Regards,
Yes, we use Prosoco and sometimes Diedrich acid based products. The Prosoco is more available and I've been able to negotiate a better price with our supplier.
I agree - anything in the 1 or 14 area on the PH scale should be handled with extreme care (skin contact and inhalation).
One of the reasons that Muriatic has been shied away from by a lot of people in the masonry arena is because it is sold in different qualities (Baume). The higher quality (23 Baume) runs about 37% Hydrochloric acid and the lower quality (18 Baume) runs about 27%. The MSDS which you point to is 22 Baume (or about 34%). Lot of end users didn't realize the differences. After they have used it once they neglect to read the label everytime they buy and assume it's all the same and mix it the same proportion. This is where the trouble starts - especially if you purchased 18 Baume the first time and 22 Baume the next.
The same applies with caustics - lot of cleaners contain maybe 5%-20% sodium hydroxide. The one you point to contains up to 40% - large difference.
Like you said - it's very important to READ the container label and MSDS and understand what you are using and what impacts and dangers you are getting exposed to. Everything can be handled safely if you know what it is.
Of course, you can't neglect the fact that each type of solution has a different cleaning value.
The internet has made information availability such a convenience and there are still a lot of people that will not use the search feature. Search, ...Read, Search ...Read ...
Regards,
paul
with the stuff you know and the work you do have you ever looked into www.eacochem.com ?
Just wanted your opinion on there products.
with the stuff you know and the work you do have you ever looked into www.eacochem.com ?
Just wanted your opinion on there products.
Ron,
The short answers are Yes and N/A (in that order).
The longer version:
I have been to their site numerous times, studied their literature that I've recieved from them, but have not had a chance to try any of their products.
My supplier is warehousing a batch of the standard chemicals that I had purchased earlier this year (which reduced my costs considerably). We will most likely not use this stock up until early summer to mid next year. They also carry a variety of masonry products that combines for additional savings. In addition, the folks are very knowledgeable (a couple of former P/W) and will go to a job site to trouble shoot for me if I ever need it.
I find the NMD-80 cleaner interesting due to it's diversity, but presently would cost me almost double (with shipping) of what I'm paying now on comparable cleaner. Plus I would either need to stock it or order every so often. With my supplier holding X-dollars worth of merchandise, my products are never out of date, as he rotates them for me.
I also have at least 6 suppliers within 15 minutes from me that offer contractor discounts on other materials and supplies that makes buying thru the mail somewhat less attractive. (Especially since Ohio law would require me to pay sales tax to Ohio on everything purchased outside the state). I would really have to get a great deal or be an extremely different product to make it worthwhile.
I do purchase different chemicals from time to time to keep my suppliers honest.
Now equipment is a different story - there are considerable savings to be had purchasing thru the mail.
Regards,
The short answers are Yes and N/A (in that order).
The longer version:
I have been to their site numerous times, studied their literature that I've recieved from them, but have not had a chance to try any of their products.
My supplier is warehousing a batch of the standard chemicals that I had purchased earlier this year (which reduced my costs considerably). We will most likely not use this stock up until early summer to mid next year. They also carry a variety of masonry products that combines for additional savings. In addition, the folks are very knowledgeable (a couple of former P/W) and will go to a job site to trouble shoot for me if I ever need it.
I find the NMD-80 cleaner interesting due to it's diversity, but presently would cost me almost double (with shipping) of what I'm paying now on comparable cleaner. Plus I would either need to stock it or order every so often. With my supplier holding X-dollars worth of merchandise, my products are never out of date, as he rotates them for me.
I also have at least 6 suppliers within 15 minutes from me that offer contractor discounts on other materials and supplies that makes buying thru the mail somewhat less attractive. (Especially since Ohio law would require me to pay sales tax to Ohio on everything purchased outside the state). I would really have to get a great deal or be an extremely different product to make it worthwhile.
I do purchase different chemicals from time to time to keep my suppliers honest.
Now equipment is a different story - there are considerable savings to be had purchasing thru the mail.
Regards,
ron p/outlaw
if you are useing that much bleach why dont you get a black 250 gal tank and try the powdered pool shock. It's like 80%.
im sure you would need to fool with "how much" to use but i would think about 5 lbs would make some serious mix in a 250 gal tank.
You would need a fresh air mask to mix a lb in a 5 gal bucket then add it too the large tank.
Then use the floating type pool chlor. and a tablet to keep up the strangth of it.
This is not an idea for your average contract cleaner and if mixed too strong will kill a lot of plants, as in roof washing. As far as flatwork i would try it and pay a local pool co. to test the strangth untill i knew how much powder to add.
getting all of the shock to desolve would be the hard part, but i think hot water and an open container should work but check it out first and be SAFE.
if you are useing that much bleach why dont you get a black 250 gal tank and try the powdered pool shock. It's like 80%.
im sure you would need to fool with "how much" to use but i would think about 5 lbs would make some serious mix in a 250 gal tank.
You would need a fresh air mask to mix a lb in a 5 gal bucket then add it too the large tank.
Then use the floating type pool chlor. and a tablet to keep up the strangth of it.
This is not an idea for your average contract cleaner and if mixed too strong will kill a lot of plants, as in roof washing. As far as flatwork i would try it and pay a local pool co. to test the strangth untill i knew how much powder to add.
getting all of the shock to desolve would be the hard part, but i think hot water and an open container should work but check it out first and be SAFE.
O'Brien Services
Member
What is a good all around "Bleach/chlorine solutiuon" to clean concrete. Do you guys mix with anything other than water? What ratio do you mix with water?
Gav,
I sorry we scared you, that was not my intention. I was trying to point out that no chemical is safer. It’s the user as Paul has helped me point that out. If you read the MSDS I’m sure I can find one on regular old bleach that looks the same.
We all need to learn how to use chemicals safer. I don’t claim to be and expert on any of them. I just have some sound advice, know what you’re using. If you know that it can help you be safer. Don’t think because you’re using a house hold chemical it’s safe. Chemicals can change in unknown situations.
Learn how to use chemicals don’t be afraid….
I sorry we scared you, that was not my intention. I was trying to point out that no chemical is safer. It’s the user as Paul has helped me point that out. If you read the MSDS I’m sure I can find one on regular old bleach that looks the same.
We all need to learn how to use chemicals safer. I don’t claim to be and expert on any of them. I just have some sound advice, know what you’re using. If you know that it can help you be safer. Don’t think because you’re using a house hold chemical it’s safe. Chemicals can change in unknown situations.
Learn how to use chemicals don’t be afraid….
Ron,
You're right on the money with what you've said.
Don't be afraid ...be cautious and safe.
Where I would like to leave this is to point out that most BB posts are generally informative but each person needs to do more detailed search on their own, as it is difficult to put all the details in any one post. For example, if you go to the Chlorox web site, there will be scores of information on the product, it's safety and recommended uses. When you leave that site, will you have all your answers? Probably not, but you have become more educated by a manufacturer that has spent years of research and spent hundreds of hours in documenting a subject that we may only spend a few minutes in trying to post an answer on.
In other words, as great as these BB's are, they only contain a part of the answer on any subject.
Keep digging ...the bottom line is only a part of the answer!
Regards,
You're right on the money with what you've said.
Don't be afraid ...be cautious and safe.
Where I would like to leave this is to point out that most BB posts are generally informative but each person needs to do more detailed search on their own, as it is difficult to put all the details in any one post. For example, if you go to the Chlorox web site, there will be scores of information on the product, it's safety and recommended uses. When you leave that site, will you have all your answers? Probably not, but you have become more educated by a manufacturer that has spent years of research and spent hundreds of hours in documenting a subject that we may only spend a few minutes in trying to post an answer on.
In other words, as great as these BB's are, they only contain a part of the answer on any subject.
Keep digging ...the bottom line is only a part of the answer!
Regards,