Is this access door acceptable

[Dlee]

I was looking at this restaurant (new construction only 8 months old) the other day and the access doors do not seem to be up to par. The doors are not grease tight nor are they water tight.

Should I tell the owner to have these fixed by the company that installed the system.

Each door has has an inner and outter. See Pic's below.

Any comments are welcome.

 

[Douglas Hicks]

Those doors do not appear to meet NFPA 96-2001 Section 7.1 or 7.2 or 7.3 or the 1998 International Mechanical Code, Section 506.3.10. I suspect the ICBO does not allow that arrangement either. The doors do not appear to meet UL1978-1995, but I do not have a copy of that standard. The insulation looks like 3M 15A or 20A. The access panels are not designed to meet 3M specs for the insulation. Where there are joints in the insulation, is there 3 inches of overlap? Is the insulation taped w/silver tape (not duct tape) and then banded as per 3M installation guide? The doors are not listed by any testing agency, or there would be a label. If the label was removed, the listing was also removed.

Meet with the building/resturant owner and advice them of your concerns. Document your findings and meeting w/the owner. Take pictures. Or you may want to meet w/the building official who signed the inspection reports. Ask their opinion, but do it nicley and do not call them rude names. The inspection official probalbly does not know the code requirements. You also need to know the adopted code where ever you are. NOT All codes are the same.

Or just put a bread tray under the panels and fill them w/kitty litter.

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc

 

[kmjt1021]

Aside from the improper access panels are there any other deficiencies.
This does happen allot, the sheet metal people build in access panels before the duct is installed. That's how they get access panels up against a brick wall. Unfortunately these panel almost never meet any code. You would think that being thier job they would know better.
I would take pictures, make a written report explaining the problems, GET SIGNATURES. Then I would enjoy the relatively easy cleaning job. Judging from our phone conversation the other day I think you could use an easy one.

 

[Dlee]

Bryan,

Good to hear from you my friend. Yes, I think we are due for a easy one. But this restaurant is new and if we don't fix it, it's going to be a big problem down the line for us or some other cleaning crew, who won't fix it. They'll just wash the hood and filters for $200.00 and put their nappy little frito bandito paper inkjet label on it and then off to the next one.

I am concerned about this one because the restaurant is on the first floor of this three story building. It would be easy to clean if it had the proper access panels. My concern is that it looks like I'll have to get a welder out there to cut them out and seal it with new metal and then we can install big 16 x 20 access panels.

Douglas,

The insulation is rapped with a fire rated metal tape. As for insulation goes I have no knowledge of the requirments so I can not advise at this time. As for the three inch overlap on the joints I did not get the impression that the installer did a good job but I was unaware of what I was looking at. Hope that makes sense.

Here's a picture where I'll be putting an access panel to have access to the short horizontals that connects the hood. There are two of these.

 

[jschessler]

hoods

Hey is that a pizza joint. they usually use that type of piping.

 

[Douglas Hicks]

Dlee, send me your e-mail and i will send you the instruction book for the 15 A insulation. Or go to www3m.com/firestop and do a search for the instructions, listings, approvals and info about the access panels. 3M has their own access panels, but you can use other panels if installed as per 3M instructions.

A set of portable shears will work to cut the access panel holes, or tinsnips or a nibbler. I figure an hour to install a panel. Now it does not take that long to cut the hole, but figure set-up time and time to decide on the best location, and you do have an hour involved.

If you need some insulation, let me know. I have some on order for a job. I will say that the insulation is not cheap, about $7.80 a square foot, plus a roll of tape at $20.00. the insulation comes 1.5 inches thick x 24 inches x 20 feet or 1.5 inches thick x 48 inches x 20 feet. It is also available 2 inches thick.

These installs by unknowlagable or uncaring contractors are a real problem for all concerned. Maybe you can educate the inspector and he can educate the insulation installer.

Douglas Hicks, not certified to tape a bit of insulation to a duct. Maybe I can pay someone $6,000.00 bucks for a class. But only if a razor knife is included.
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc

 

[Dlee]

jschessler,

No sir not a pizza joint. Chinees Restaurant on 1st floor of a 3 story bldg.


Douglas,

I don't think they would throw in a razor knife for 6K. Well maybe a "Rusty" one. I appreciate you looking in on this post you have brought to mind details that I wouldn't even metion or even care about after I had my access panels installed. I'll read up on the references after I get some sleep.

Thanks,

 

[Michael T]

access panel doors

Dlee, I don't think these are too far off from being correct.
First , do I see an inner door and an outer door? If this is true eliminate the inner door and put a high temp gasket and add more fasteners and it should be okay.

My reasoning:
1. Door is made of same gauge material.
2. Door is away from the edge and in the appropriate place.
3. No screw penetrating into the duct.

Is there an insulation blanket "pillow" to cover the door?

If this duct work is less than one year old there should be a guarantee on the workmanship. But you will have to contact the GC through the Restaurant owner , or whoever contracted the job. The AHJ will have to become involved to get any real results. At this point everyone has signed off on it. I think this might be a tuff sale. I don't know what code the adhere to in your area, nfpa, ubc .... etc. Find out before you proceed. You know the old saying. "Know the answers before you ask the question".

just my .02 worth.

Michael T

 

[Dlee]

Michael,

Howdy neighbor. The only thing I disagree with about these access panels is that they leak water when we ran our duct spinner down the duct. The restaurant is 8 months old and when I disassembled the access panels there was a slight buildup of grease on the inner and outer covers (See picture #2 below... same as above). This can't be a good condition for the restaurant.

I could just install a few more access panels to provide access for spraying chemical inside the 50ft horizontal and the two 6ft horizontals for the other exhaust system and then just clean up the mess when we're done. That's what we did last time we cleaned it.

I would like to offer a solution at the same time I go over the after service follow up report with the owner.

If I don't address the issue now they certainly would not understand it 12 months from now. The restaurant next door (same building) has a wood burning grill and it caught fire and did some damage. So I'm pretty sure the owner is concerned (I hope) about their exhaust systems since, I heard it was the same builder.

 

[Dlee]

Douglas,


Great info on the insulation and the access panel insulation covering. I'll work that into the presentation.

Good stuff!

Thanks,

 

[Michael T]

David, Back at ya, A big WET Howdy. Ive had enough rain. 12" in the last 30 days. Enough is enough.

I hope you get some resolve on this problem. I know what you mean about them leaking with the duct spinner. Even the best made factory doors will leak. Like Doug said , Just put a pan under it. We have a college we clean and we have to remove all the ceiling tile under the duct and put plastic on the floor because the "New" duct leaks. Every place they welded it together it has some leaks. The contractor has been back to fix it but it still leaks. The Facilities manager says they have to live with it. It only leaks when we wash it. But still it is a problem for them. O the joy of being a KEV Cleaning contractor.

Hey one of these days we need to hook up in Waco ( half way ) for some BBQ.

Michael T

 

[Dlee]

The meeting went well ...I guess. The owner asked some very pointed questions I gave some very honest answers. My point was that it is not as NFPA 96 specs and it leaks grease and also water when being washed.

I pointed out the inaccessable areas of the exhaust system and made a strong suggestion that an attempt should be made to contact the contractor to resolve the issues and to have the contractor contact me for any technical info.

I'm going to check back with the owner at the end of Jul to see what has happened. Hopefully we will get the work.

Michael T,

Where do you hail from send me a PM if you want to keep it private. I think you are in the Houston or Austin area aren't you.

Sure we can meet in Waco not that far for me.

 

[Douglas Hicks]

Any action on the duct questions?

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc

 

[Dlee]

Douglas,

No, I haven't pressed the customer yet, maybe next week. We've been busy and I had forgotten all about it. Thanks for reminding me. We will be washing this resturant again late Aug early Sept. She is suposed to be contacting the sheetmetal company that installed it. Haven't heard a word from them either. Most likely we will be doing the work.

 

[Douglas Hicks]

Dlee, any action on the duct?

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc

 

[Dlee]

Douglas,

We just cleaned that system two weeks ago and I get the impression from them they wish I'd stop bringing that subject up. The duct needs to have proper access panels but I think they are scared of what it might cost them.

They had some sort of disagreement with the company that installed the hoods and ducts so any disputes can not be settled or made fire safe per NFPA 96 by that company, who ever they are, they won't say who.

Not sure of the approach I'd take to rectify this situation. But if I could cut these access ports out and have sheet metal welded over the hole and then just start over with biggest UL listed access panel that will fit it might just work.

Here's another look at what the fabricator calls an access panel for grease duct.

 

[John B]

Just wondering how did your duct spinner do on the chinese grease ? Ours works pretty good but all 3 of the chinese restaurants that I clean have wall mounted fans and short ducts.. I never had to use my duct spinner on them

Taken From Phil Ackland site and also from NFPA...

Access Panels (Doors)

Properly constructed and installed access doors or panels are mandatory to cover these openings. This is best achieved by requiring that only UL Listed Grease Duct Access Panels (Doors) be used.

NFPA #96 4-3.4.4 (1998 Edition), or 7.4.3.4 (2001 Edition) states:

"Listed grease duct access door assemblies (access panels) shall be installed in accordance with the terms of the listing and the manufacturer's instructions."
The construction requirements of these UL Listed Grease Duct Access Panels must be as follows:

Same thickness as the duct (No. 16 MSG carbon steel or 18 MSG stainless steel)
Gasket sealants must be rated for at least 1500 degrees F (815.6 degrees C)
Must be grease tight
Fasteners shall be of carbon steel or stainless steel
Door fasteners must not penetrate the duct walls
Doors can be opened without the use of tools
Door mountings shall ensure a proper, secure fitting over openings
Architects and consultants should specify UL Listed Grease Duct Access Panels on new construction and renovation plan drawings.

The most common access panels that we see and also sell are the double walled type with 2 screws that when inserted in the duct they clamp tight to the duct work...

 

[dodsonish]

Here's the type of access panel I'm used to seeing. Most people around here respond in this fashion, "I've been here for 15 years and never had any need for an access panel", or "I just had a guy cut that panel in a couple of years ago, should be just fine".

Even had a Downtown hotel engineer tell me that they had a fire a few years ago that melted all kind of grease out of the duct. He figured that should have cleaned them out pretty good, "no need for access panels".

 

[cgibson]

What if the actual access door is missing and all you are left with is the outside fire door.

I saw this one yesterday at a large and successful amusment/theme park in Southern California.

Can you say "Smoke Problem" in the kitchen???

 

[mtngoat]

So who has a UL panel for sale? or other proper device?